Initial Androids

[SSJ2]

How strong do you think 19 and 20 were initially?

 

[Hector]

Slightly stronger than SSJ Alternate Trunks (1st appearance).

 

[SSJ2]

I agree with that. I don't see how they can be weaker than the likes of Freeza.

 

[GSM123]

They can be anywhere really. The only feat people have brought up for them is #19 not breaking apart against SSJ Goku, what's a pretty poor argument when Goku was having a heart attack in the middle of the fight. I mean, Goku was so bad he couldn't even keep up with Tenshinhan's flight speed properly! Besides, even 50% Freeza was taking blows from a not full power Goku.

I think they are around Kaio-Ken x10 Goku's power, probably somewhat weaker depending on how reliable Goku punching #20 is.

 

[SSJ2]

They can be anywhere really. The only feat people have brought up for them is #19 not breaking apart against SSJ Goku, what's a pretty poor argument when Goku was having a heart attack in the middle of the fight. I mean, Goku was so bad he couldn't even keep up with Tenshinhan's flight speed properly! Besides, even 50% Freeza was taking blows from a not full power Goku.

I think they are around Kaio-Ken x10 Goku's power, probably somewhat weaker depending on how reliable Goku punching #20 is.

No way in hell man.

Spoiler

19 was totally outclassed but was still capable of keeping up with Goku's speed somewhat - even being able to dodge one of his blows.

Kaioken x10 Goku wasn't even able to make 50% Freeza move like that!

Spoiler

If anything, 19's fight with Goku looks shockingly similar to Goku vs the Ginyu Force.

Spoiler

Obviously 19's durability helped him stay in the fight longer, but in terms of pure ability it shouldn't be much different than Goku vs the Ginyus.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd place #19 above the SSJ Trunks from 3 years ago and Gero about equal to SSJ Yardrat Goku. Along with #19's feats, nobody other than Vegeta judged them as not living up to the hype beyond Piccolo's ambiguous statement (with the "We're stronger than we realised" statement being the more likely option), and in Vegeta's case he could've been talking about them in the context of them being capable of killing everyone rather than just stronger than Trunks (especially considering he used the term "terrible" or whatever synonym of that the translator wishes to use rather than a phrase explicitly linked with strength). All that said, I'd say they should at least be decently stronger than the Trunks who killed Freeza.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Super Saiyan[/mention] Sure, but Goku was nowhere near at the top of his game thanks to the virus. He was already so weak he couldn’t shrug off long distance flights (Something even Saiyan Arc characters could. In fact, not even Goku post Snake Run was that tired!) and Vegeta said Super Saiyan only worsened his condition. Piccolo even said he was pathetic and should be far, far better than that.

I’m not sure if the math adds up, but the fact his Kamehameha didn’t up #19 up to real SSJ tier should mean both of them were pretty trashy.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I’m not sure if the math adds up, but the fact his Kamehameha didn’t up #19 up to real SSJ tier should mean both of them were pretty trashy.

We aren't really given an indication that absorbing a Ki attack allows an Artificial Human to gather every unit of Ki from it. In fact, the wording of this statement seems to suggest otherwise:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.1
Context: when No.19 asks to fight Vegeta
No.20: “You’re so greedy…Even though you sucked so much energy out of Son Goku, and have raised your absolute power…”

With how blatant Gero is talking about #19's power increasing, you'd think he'd bother to point out all of Goku's lost Ki being added to his own.

Even if we do take it as a 100% addition, it's worth noting that Gero made it apparent #19 was running out of energy too, so a fatigued #19 greatly increasing his max power from a fatigued Goku is very impressive, if anything.

 

[SSJ2]

@Super Saiyan Sure, but Goku was nowhere near at the top of his game thanks to the virus. He was already so weak he couldn’t shrug off long distance flights (Something even Saiyan Arc characters could. In fact, not even Goku post Snake Run was that tired!) and Vegeta said Super Saiyan only worsened his condition. Piccolo even said he was pathetic and should be far, far better than that.

I’m not sure if the math adds up, but the fact his Kamehameha didn’t up #19 up to real SSJ tier should mean both of them were pretty trashy.

Despite Goku's "miserable condition" according to Piccolo, he was still shown to be above his Yardrat self by a decent margin. Tenshinhan was shocked by how impressive he was and Piccolo didn't immediately call him out for being weak. If he was weaker than he was 3 years ago you can bet something would have been said immediately. Piccolo knew something was up but wasn't definitive about it until after seeing Goku fight for a while.

His stamina problems aside, nothing suggests that his power was so dramatically weakened that he'd be weaker than the likes of 50% Freeza. Going by what you said, Goku would have to be weaker than that if 19 pre is ~Kaioken x10 Goku.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Super Saiyan[/mention] stamina aside he probably is as strong as you’re arguing, but his stamina was still a factor nonetheless.

If anything the fact Piccolo didn’t call him weak immediately supports my view. There was nothing wrong with Goku’s ki, he looked as strong as he should be, but all that power was actually being held back by his bad stamina or directed to organs to keep his body together.

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] I wouldn’t call Gero’s semantics something that “suggests otherwise”. It’s not like he’s saying the literal opposite of what I’m saying.

But if we do talk about Gero’s statements, he did believe Vegeta having the same transformation as Goku wouldn’t help him against #19, and his shock to Vegeta trashing him sounds like he expected #19 to win easily, without having to absorb any Ki. So for Gero: #19 post > SSJ Vegeta ~ Sick Goku

 

[ahill1]

They were on [killing freeza) Trunks SSJ's level to me.