Is Full Power SSJ stronger than regular SSJ?

[GSM123]

As per [mention]Supreme[/mention]'s challenge, I decided to make a post topic that I've recently debated and changed my mind about.

So, is Full Power Super Saiyan, the transformation used by Goku and Gohan? I mean, it is strongly implied in the story that they'd need to come up with something new in order to fight the Androids, let alone Cell.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Nothing really implies the boost is any greater, with stamina retention being the only real difference.

They came up with something new to beat the Artificial Humans with the Grade forms, whilst the general boost Goku and Gohan got from the training of mastering SSJ doing the trick. The feats of the Base Saiyans in the Boo Arc show them as being at least #18 tier, so I fail to see the relevance Goku's doubts before going into the Rosat holds.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku probably underestimated the ROSAT training and put more faith on Grade forms as the only way to defeat Cell and other Androids. FPSSjin is just a normal SSjin with no strain/stamina issue.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think that, as one masters SSJ form, his grade forms boost declines while his base/SSJ potential is reset.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I don't think so. Goku wanted to perfect Super-Saiyan and that way get more effective training results. That's all in my opinion.

 

[GSM123]

I don't think so. Goku wanted to perfect Super-Saiyan and that way get more effective training results. That's all in my opinion.

I think that, as one masters SSJ form, his grade forms boost declines while his base/SSJ potential is reset.

Nothing really implies the boost is any greater, with stamina retention being the only real difference.

They came up with something new to beat the Artificial Humans with the Grade forms, whilst the general boost Goku and Gohan got from the training of mastering SSJ doing the trick. The feats of the Base Saiyans in the Boo Arc show them as being at least #18 tier, so I fail to see the relevance Goku's doubts before going into the Rosat holds.

There's an issue with that, though. It's expressed that they've hit a wall with the Super Saiyan, so it sounds unlikely that training would amount to anything. Daizenshuu 7 even expresses training became ineffective and was replaced with transformations as their power up method:

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?
Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

CC, don't you think the stamina point ends up being a Catch-22? Granted how the Grade forms' main issues were stamina, whilst regular SSJ's issues were little to note, why would he get rid of the stamina issues but not use the power of the forms? Vegeta even seems to think that's what Goku is going to do against Cell:
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's an issue with that, though. It's expressed that they've hit a wall with the Super Saiyan, so it sounds unlikely that training would amount to anything. Daizenshuu 7 even expresses training became ineffective and was replaced with transformations as their power up method:

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?
Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

That statement seems to be more in reference to the increase in scale and power creep of the series, as well as the current major threat that they faced, in this case being Perfect Cell. It also stands more in reference to the Zenkais, formerly the cheap route to power ups, become small, but doesn't say the same about training gains.

CC, don't you think the stamina point ends up being a Catch-22? Granted how the Grade forms' main issues were stamina, whilst regular SSJ's issues were little to note, why would he get rid of the stamina issues but not use the power of the forms? Vegeta even seems to think that's what Goku is going to do against Cell:
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

That's a good point. However, Vegeta's statement is purely concerned about the strain of the form and it's important to remember that bar normally fatal wounds, Cell's regeneration provides him with the stamina to outlast most opponents. Even if Goku or Vegeta assumed Grade 2 could surpass Cell in terms of power, it doesn't really help if he can win a war of attrition.

 

[SSJ2]

I don’t see any reason to assume “full power” Super Saiyan is any different. Literally the only difference between it and regular Super Saiyan is that Goku and Gohan felt as natural in the form as in Base. Nothing about a change in power was ever implied, so there’s no reason to believe such.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't really buy into the wall stuff tbh. Vegeta and Trunks totally ditched the Grade forms and were back to using Super Saiyan again. For all intents and purposes, Cell Games Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks>Grade 2 Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks. They overcame the "wall" by being introduced to the rosat. Super Saiyan Vegeta alone was a match for Semi-Cell.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

"The wall" thing is just another excuse for Toriyama to introduce another transformation.

 

[GSM123]

That's a good point. However, Vegeta's statement is purely concerned about the strain of the form and it's important to remember that bar normally fatal wounds, Cell's regeneration provides him with the stamina to outlast most opponents. Even if Goku or Vegeta assumed Grade 2 could surpass Cell in terms of power, it doesn't really help if he can win a war of attrition.

It's not purely from the strain, it's from the strain in relation to the power up. Big difference. I think Vegeta would've compared their stamina to Cell's rather than talking about raising power if we were supposed to interpret it that way.

It's also worth noting that Vegeta was never shown to be aware that Cell (Or even Namekians in general) can regenerate.

I don't really buy into the wall stuff tbh. Vegeta and Trunks totally ditched the Grade forms and were back to using Super Saiyan again. For all intents and purposes, Cell Games Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks>Grade 2 Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks. They overcame the "wall" by being introduced to the rosat. Super Saiyan Vegeta alone was a match for Semi-Cell.

I find that the be a bit contradictory tbf. I mean, given how Vegeta and Trunks went so far as SSJs, why did they waste time with the grade forms? It clearly took them time as Trunks said Vegeta took 2 months to achieve the form, but they went with the buff, strainful (And even slow, when it comes to Grade III) forms rather than just making their SSJ1 powers that strong.

I've asked both Dioxide and VoR about this once, and both said that Post Rosat Vegeta was on a "transtionary state" there where he was already powered up, but not enough to get buff yet. What do you think of that?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's not purely from the strain, it's from the strain in relation to the power up. Big difference. I think Vegeta would've compared their stamina to Cell's rather than talking about raising power if we were supposed to interpret it that way.

That could've been in reference to their training gains in general and their differing approach to training though.

It's also worth noting that Vegeta was never shown to be aware that Cell (Or even Namekians in general) can regenerate.

He saw Cell troll him and regenerate his arm after being hit by his trump card.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

grade 2 still more effective even though it gives strain

 

[Fantastische Hure]

SSJ2 was stated to be the one to surpass SSJ (the SSJ wall) and MSSJ was still referred to just as SSJ without anything to differentiate it. No-one ever said this so called MSSJ surpassed regular SSJ either.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Because Vegeta is not a "genius" like Goku, he himself says so in the Boo Saga. He was always a step behind Goku. It was obvious to Vegeta but he was so intent on surpassing SSJ that he couldn't tell the forest for the trees, where-as Goku was calm and thought the situation through.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

Can't say I agree with that theory. Trunks noted that Vegeta was about to turn into Grade 2, so that doesn't sound like he's partially transformed. More like he's just a regular Super Saiyan there and about to go up to the next level.

 

[sei'taer]

Grade 2 and Grade 3 are essentially the same form, just that at some point bulking your muscles kills your speed.