Is "Ultimate" a form?

[ahill1]

Rereading the chapter where old Man ends to unlock Gohan's power past to its limits. Before the "it's just like turning Super Saiyan" power up, Gohan seemed to share all the characteristics of himself before the power up, like a less mature face and lack of outlined eyes. He just showed such traits after powering up, that is, after accessing his Ultimate powers:

Before powering up, lack of outlined eyes
----------------------------------------------

That's post power up, where we can clearly see outlined eyes and a more "man face", with filled traces similar to future Trunks' face when he killed future Cell.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Manga-wise, not really. Elder Kaioshin stating that transformations like Super Saiyan being inefficient point towards it being an ultimate potential boost and nothing more. The changes in appearance were likely purely for aesthetic and stylistic purposes to present that Gohan had reached a new level.

BoG and Super seem to present as more of a transformation though, unless you attribute it's use to just Gohan unleashing his full power.

 

[ahill1]

Manga-wise, not really. Elder Kaioshin stating that transformations like Super Saiyan being inefficient point towards it being an ultimate potential boost and nothing more. The changes in appearance were likely purely for aesthetic and stylistic purposes to present that Gohan had reached a new level.

Maybe it's just the Super Saiyan transformation he holds as "not being everything"? But Gohan seemed to keep said changes until his fight with Boo. Do you think the changes in Gohan's face are related to a way of the author to portray a new level of power, rather than a transformation? The characters in Dragon Ball seem to change their appearances generally by transforming themselves, just like Goku turning into a Super Saiyan.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't think so. Goku asked Old Kaioshin if they should be Super Saiyans before merging, so he doesn't seem to be in a transformed state.

I think once he completes the process, it's just a permanent thing. He never powered-up to fight Gotenks Boo despite being in a relaxed state for about an hr.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think so. Goku asked Old Kaioshin if they should be Super Saiyans before merging, so he doesn't seem to be in a transformed state.

I think once he completes the process, it's just a permanent thing. He never powered-up to fight Gotenks Boo despite being in a relaxed state for about an hr.

Was Goku talking about Gohan too? Because as far as the manga goes, Gohan can't turn into a SSJ.

Against Gotenks-Boo he does have those full outlined eyes too, right? Even after the battle was over and everyone was laughing like an idiot Gohan does have those outlined eyes and a mature face. Why'd he show such traits if all he did was a power up?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku asked if we should become Super Saiyan before merging, so he appears to be talking about both himself and Gohan.

I think Ultimate is supposed to represent Gohan in an entirely different light. Piccolo said his features were a bit different, but that his Chi was completely different now that he was no longer gentle or whatever. When Gohan got pissed after Boo did his Genocide, he does show the same traits before reverting back to normal when he sits down. In this case, if it's a form, it would be more accurately described as a permanent state.

 

[ahill1]

Goku asked if we should become Super Saiyan before merging, so he appears to be talking about both himself and Gohan.

Weird, since Gohan couldn't turn into a SSJ.

I think Ultimate is supposed to represent Gohan in an entirely different light. Piccolo said his features were a bit different, but that his Chi was completely different now that he was no longer gentle or whatever. When Gohan got pissed after Boo did his Genocide, he does show the same traits before reverting back to normal when he sits down. In this case, if it's a form, it would be more accurately described as a permanent state.

Well, I think it's a bit strange how those traits didn't come to the surface until Gohan powered up.

 

[Cell]

It's definitely a permanent transformation.

The most prominent feature, the eye-change, is still present after the battle when everyone is celebrating:

Spoiler

...and 10 years later, EoZ:

Spoiler

Side-note [HunterXHunter Spoiler]:

Spoiler: HXH Spoiler

I once considered comparing "Ultimate" to Gon's transformation against Neferpitou.

Spoiler

...maturing Gohan to his physical prime.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku asked if we should become Super Saiyan before merging, so he appears to be talking about both himself and Gohan.

Weird, since Gohan couldn't turn into a SSJ.

I guess Goku forgot. The first thing he did was comment on how powerful Gohan was despite not really changing much. No idea why he thought transforming would matter.

Well, I think it's a bit strange how those traits didn't come to the surface until Gohan powered up.

Yeah. I just look at it as a permanent change.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

A while ago, i posted an analysis about Ultimate being a form. This explains why Gohan went back to blonde forms (he still
has Ultimate, but cannot access it easily because he hasn't trained it). Also, it can be used in retcon to support Goku's/Vegeta's
two base theory.

 

[ahill1]

It's definitely a permanent transformation.

The most prominent feature, the eye-change, is still present after the battle when everyone is celebrating:

Spoiler

...and 10 years later, EoZ:

Spoiler

Side-note [HunterXHunter Spoiler]:

Spoiler: HXH Spoiler

I once considered comparing "Ultimate" to Gon's transformation against Neferpitou.

Spoiler

...maturing Gohan to his physical prime.

Yeah. The weird thing is that Gohan didn't show those traits before powering up. It's like if powering up changed Gohan completely and permanently. So you think "Ultimate" is like a form, albeit a permanent one?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Well, the guy who knew Gohan for most of his life didn't realize it was him until he got closer. It being a Godly ritual might explain why it completely changed him.

 

[Cell]

Yeah. The weird thing is that Gohan didn't show those traits before powering up. It's like if powering up changed Gohan completely and permanently. So you think "Ultimate" is like a form, albeit a permanent one?

I don't know if it's the semantics of what you're trying to label it as... but basically I believe that once the ritual was complete, Gohan activated/finalized his transformation.

He became "Ultimate"... and would not ever regress or lose that form. Power, sure... that's a possibility with all the laziness he is... but he was forever changed.

...obviously this comes at the expense of ignoring Super/GT... but meh.

 

[ahill1]

At least in GT Gohan showed such traits as the outlined eyes, though he could turn into a SSJ, although I dunno if turning into SSJ means he lost his Ultimate "form". I mainly started to consider it as a transformation based on Gohan physic's changes. But many people don't consider it as a transformation, just as a power up and end.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

I don't consider it a transformation, but rather the base has surpassed the needs for one. (As seen in Shitadel)

 

[Spiral-Force]

Old Kai views Super Saiyan transformations as an unsuitable way of ascending, so it wouldn't make sense for him to use the equivalent of that for Gohan's ascension. Also, nothing implied that Gohan could just tap out of his new state, the only thing that's noted is that it brought Gohan way past his limits. The change in appearance, mixed with what I said initially, indicates that the unlock was a permanent transformation that replaced Gohan's old base form.

 

[ahill1]

Old Kai views Super Saiyan transformations as an unsuitable way of ascending, so it wouldn't make sense for him to use the equivalent of that for Gohan's ascension. Also, nothing implied that Gohan could just tap out of his new state, the only thing that's noted is that it brought Gohan way past his limits. The change in appearance, mixed with what I said initially, indicates that the unlock was a permanent transformation that replaced Gohan's old base form.

So you think "Ultimate" is a form?

 

[Spiral-Force]

So you thinks "Ultimate" is a form?

Yeah, but not one that can turn on/off at will. I really doubt that was the intention.