Jiren vs Superman

[Southern Gothic]

This thread got a lot of members assblasted over on another forum, so I'm doing it here. Superman is an Amalgamation of all his main continuity versions. Who wins?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Supes still wins. Whilst Jiren is on par or slightly stronger than Sword of Superman Supes, he's nowhere near as fast as someone who can cross the universe in seconds and with the Sword of Superman, he'd damn omnipresent. If we restrict his SoS self, then Jiren likely wins due to superior firepower and both having comparable stamina.

 

[VampireWicked]

Supes still wins. Whilst Jiren is on par or slightly stronger than Sword of Superman Supes, he's nowhere near as fast as someone who can cross the universe in seconds and with the Sword of Superman, he'd damn omnipresent. If we restrict his SoS self, then Jiren likely wins due to superior firepower and both having comparable stamina.

DragonBall SUPER Anime who knows how fast Toyotarou could up or already have upped Jiren's speed.

If Jiren has Sword of Superman Superman in strength then i don't see Superman having the ability to fly end to end across the universe in seconds changing anything as Jiren would be adapted to pull something out left field & permanently put the Kryptonian.

Jiren is a being who's more powerful than LimitBreakerBlue Vegeta, someone who punches through a Destruction (破壊 Hakai) attack.
Both Goku & Vegeta are currently 50times more powerful than the initial SuperSaiyan God RED Goku who shook the entire universe which could've been destroyed if it continued.
And Jiren (Episode 127) is currently still more powerful than them both.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And literally all of that is just baseless assumptions. Not only do Beerus and Whis' travel feats not come anywhere close to peak Superman's, but there's no reason to assume Jiren would be millions of times faster than them from what he's shown, or even have a reason to present such a feat for that matter.

 

[VampireWicked]

And literally all of that is just baseless assumptions. Not only do Beerus and Whis' travel feats not come anywhere close to peak Superman's, but there's no reason to assume Jiren would be millions of times faster than them from what he's shown, or even have a reason to present such a feat for that matter.

You're talking about a character who's entire power set is heavily reliant on exposure to yellow solar or a particular radiation & an army of DC Comic writers cranking him up beyond plausible for the character just because.

And this is verses a character who is abilities are the same no matter the sun color & suppressed is far more than capable of a character who in the initial SuperSaiyan God RED form could've wiped out the entire universe in a few physical punches.


[youtube]rf37Tx-vnek[/youtube]

Superman needs a huge dose of sunlight & some all powerful sword for him to come close to a suppressed Jiren, than Jiren is going to hand Superman his own spine.

Yeah i'm still going with Jiren winning easily.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And this is verses a character who is abilities are the same no matter the sun color & suppressed is far more than capable of a character who in the initial SuperSaiyan God RED form could've wiped out the entire universe in a few physical punches.

Being far above a Universe buster doesn't necessarily equate to Jiren being in a different league of destructive capacity as battle powers never correlate fully with destructive feats. For instance, 1st form Freeza's battle power is 106,000x above an average human, yet it'd take millions of times more energy than the human body outputs to City Bust, nevermind Planet Bust.

For Jiren, we can only go with feats he's actually displayed and not just assumptions, so he's still at best slightly stronger than peak Superman.

Superman needs a huge dose of sunlight & some all powerful sword for him to come close to a suppressed Jiren, than Jiren is going to hand Superman his own spine.

1. The OP says Superman at his peak, so the sun isn't a factor.
2. Being suppressed doesn't mean Jiren is in a completely different league of destructive capacity. Both are still only Universe+ level and Superman has far, far better speed feats.

Yeah i'm still going with Jiren winning easily.

Despite the fact that he lacks the speed to contend with Superman.

 

[VampireWicked]

Being far above a Universe buster doesn't necessarily equate to Jiren being in a different league of destructive capacity as battle powers never correlate fully with destructive feats. For instance, 1st form Freeza's battle power is 106,000x above an average human, yet it'd take millions of times more energy than the human body outputs to City Bust, nevermind Planet Bust.

For Jiren, we can only go with feats he's actually displayed and not just assumptions, so he's still at best slightly stronger than peak Superman.

You understand japanese Anime/Manga does not the same way as western comics right, relying on actual feats to determine any fictional character's strengths, given abilities, or overall threat level. Right.

For japanese Anime/Manga scaling (not universally applied throughout all japanese Anime/Manga) is the closest thing to multitude of writers working western comics deciding how powerful this & that character should be based on whatever story plot they're tossing together.

So there's no reason Jiren cannot be scaled beyond belief.

2. Again you under sell Jiren's capabilities. But then again it's not necessarily you as much as it is of how the DragonBall Universe in a manner of speaking causally reacts to any given thing.

DC/Marvel Comics spectacular events are expressed through a huge crowd reaction.
The DragonBall Universe isn't as detailed & littered with the average beings to express such exaggerated reactions & properly convey the gravity of each situation.

3.

For Jiren, we can only go with feats he's actually displayed and not just assumptions, so he's still at best slightly stronger than peak Superman.

And this is still Jiren at his suppressed state.
It wasn't until Episode 127 that Jiren decided to unleash, before that Jiren suppressed was still dominating a character who's more than 200x powerful than the initial state which threatened to literally wipe the universe from existence.

So Goku Episode 109 is more than a causal universe buster, & Jiren suppressed dominated him.
Can you recall or post any actual feat where Superman under his own power threatened to literally wipe the universe from existence ?

1. The OP says Superman at his peak, so the sun isn't a factor.

It's Superman SO Sun is always a factor. It's the very thing that makes him SUPER.

Being suppressed doesn't mean Jiren is in a completely different league of destructive capacity. Both are still only Universe+ level and Superman has far, far better speed feats.

Then you don't understand the meaning of the word suppressed or scaling.

Jiren suppressed means he literally is reducing his own power.
Scaling means ALL STATS SCALE not just brute strength.

Despite the fact that he lacks the speed to contend with Superman.

Again Scaling means ALL STATS SCALE, not just brute strength.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You understand japanese Anime/Manga does not the same way as western comics right, relying on actual feats to determine any fictional character's strengths, given abilities, or overall threat level. Right.

For japanese Anime/Manga scaling (not universally applied throughout all japanese Anime/Manga) is the closest thing to multitude of writers working western comics deciding how powerful this & that character should be based on whatever story plot they're tossing together.

So there's no reason Jiren cannot be scaled beyond belief.

2. Again you under sell Jiren's capabilities. But then again it's not necessarily you as much as it is of how the DragonBall Universe in a manner of speaking causally reacts to any given thing.

DC/Marvel Comics spectacular events are expressed through a huge crowd reaction.
The DragonBall Universe isn't as detailed & littered with the average beings to express such exaggerated reactions & properly convey the gravity of each situation.

3.

And I hope you understand that absolutely none of that can be used as evidence for your claim of Jiren > Superman, as this entire section of your post is mere conjecture.

And this is still Jiren at his suppressed state.
It wasn't until Episode 127 that Jiren decided to unleash, before that Jiren suppressed was still dominating a character who's more than 200x powerful than the initial state which threatened to literally wipe the universe from existence.

So Goku Episode 109 is more than a causal universe buster, & Jiren suppressed dominated him.

Again, that doesn't place Jiren at Multiverse level since it's been made apparent that battle power/Ki scaling doesn't work as such, making the entire argument of Jiren being suppressed irrelevant as the entirety of it hinges on baseless assumptions on the capability of his true power.

Can you recall or post any actual feat where Superman under his own power threatened to literally wipe the universe from existence?

Pre-Crisis Superman has plenty of Universe level feats and higher.

For one, he pushed himself towards the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that had withstood such an explosion.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114397/3004635-enduresentirecreation.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114397/3004636-enduresentirecreation1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114397/3004637-enduresentirecreation2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114397/3004639-survivesbigbang1.jpg

He also fought on the same level as Darklord Maaldor, whose power was so great his death caused the creation of a new Universe.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/gmqs0FCvGlkPBr-ESUT0Np1M4I68US_wc9VY-0gclrhcIvUmE-KdsBDt6O8jXmp7Z83mULTiirIR=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Sj1b4DIJEmdEabCWJBEwlKimi0jxs_lZxDs5bpHjuqiGhVKMKBoGGPjydBTg-Js8gDRsUqW7e3sR=s0

As for his sword Sword of Superman self, it was all but explicitly stated that had he fully absorbed the sword, he would've become one with the Universe's entirety, including space-time and omnipresence.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1841562
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1841565

Comparitively, it was stated that Beerus wouldn't survive the destruction of the Universe and considering Jiren isn't dozens of times stronger than him, there's no reason to believe he could as well. Then there's what I've already said, Beerus and Whis' best speed feats have been traversing Solar Systems in seconds, which is still nowhere close to Superman crossing the Universe in seconds, a feat we have yet to see Jiren's speed, and likely never will, come close to.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/Y3SBh.jpg

And by the very nature of Dragon Ball, we'll of course never see an omnipresent character, meaning he still can't compete with Sword of Superman Kal-El.

It's Superman SO Sun is always a factor. It's the very thing that makes him SUPER.

Unless the OP specifies this as a factor for debate, such is irrelevant, not to mention it'd be out of character for Jiren to exploit this weakness.

Then you don't understand the meaning of the word suppressed or scaling.

Jiren suppressed means he literally is reducing his own power.
Scaling means ALL STATS SCALE not just brute strength.

What's clear is you don't understand the meaning of the words evidence or conjecture as you have yet to provide the former to prove Jiren is above Superman and have been relying solely on the latter.

Whilst it's true that speed scales from power, it's never to a linear degree, seeing as how some characters have managed to avoid being speedblitzed by far superior opponents (eg. Tenshinhan and Base Goku being able to dodge Gero's eye lasers), or the very notion of more power = more speed being outright contradicted on occasion. For instance, Base Goku when fighting Ginyu and after Ginyu took over his body was noted to have a faster body than Ginyu's purple one, despite the latter having a battle power 30k higher. Also, whilst speed increases along with power, the only case in which it's ever noticed to increase linearly is with Kaioken.

Again, provide actual evidence, not just conjecture.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Sun should not be a factor here since there is always the implied neutral ground for these battles. Beyond that, if we want to assume Superman needs the sun for this thread to work, he has the whole universe at his disposal and could very well find a yellow star even greater than our own and power himself up to a whole new level. Both of these factors only serve to gimp the battle so should be thrown our entirely here. Just like Jiren stumbling across Kryptonite is not going to be a consideration.

Peak Supes v Peak Jiren here.

 

[VampireWicked]

And I hope you understand that absolutely none of that can be used as evidence for your claim of Jiren > Superman, as this entire section of your post is mere conjecture.

Again, that doesn't place Jiren at Multiverse level since it's been made apparent that battle power/Ki scaling doesn't work as such, making the entire argument of Jiren being suppressed irrelevant as the entirety of it hinges on baseless assumptions on the capability of his true power.

Pre-Crisis Superman has plenty of Universe level feats and higher.

For one, he pushed himself towards the center of the Big Bang and destroyed a structure that had withstood such an explosion.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sca ... eation.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sca ... ation1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sca ... ation2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sca ... gbang1.jpg

He also fought on the same level as Darklord Maaldor, whose power was so great his death caused the creation of a new Universe.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/gmqs0FCvGlkPBr ... LTiirIR=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Sj1b4DIJEmdEab ... qW7e3sR=s0

As for his sword Sword of Superman self, it was all but explicitly stated that had he fully absorbed the sword, he would've become one with the Universe's entirety, including space-time and omnipresence.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1841562
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1841565

It is not conjecture as that's how scaling works in the Dragon Ball Universe.
[youtube]ihd3q9UqT-I[/youtube]
In short They're that powerful cause they are written that way.

And the proof is right there.
Goku SuperSaiyan Blue is multiple times more powerful than God RED, the same God RED threatened to wipe out the entire Universe from existence.

Add a 20x Kaioken multiplier on top of that SuperSaiyan Blue multiplier. That far more than dominates the God RED Universal buster right there.

Before Ultra-Instinct was introduced Jiren suppressed was literally shown dominating SuperSaiyan Blue with Kaioken 20x applied.

Who also shook the infinite void.

Comparitively, it was stated that Beerus wouldn't survive the destruction of the Universe and considering Jiren isn't dozens of times stronger than him, there's no reason to believe he could as well. Then there's what I've already said, Beerus and Whis' best speed feats have been traversing Solar Systems in seconds, which is still nowhere close to Superman crossing the Universe in seconds, a feat we have yet to see Jiren's speed, and likely never will, come close to.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/Y3SBh.jpg

And by the very nature of Dragon Ball, we'll of course never see an omnipresent character, meaning he still can't compete with Sword of Superman Kal-El.

The seththeprogrammer videos long past provided a rebuttal.

Unless the OP specifies this as a factor for debate, such is irrelevant, not to mention it'd be out of character for Jiren to exploit this weakness.

Again this is Superman.
He relies on the solar radiation, not just for power but to maintain durability.
Powerful attacks can deplete him.

What's clear is you don't understand the meaning of the words evidence or conjecture as you have yet to provide the former to prove Jiren is above Superman and have been relying solely on the latter.

Whilst it's true that speed scales from power, it's never to a linear degree, seeing as how some characters have managed to avoid being speedblitzed by far superior opponents (eg. Tenshinhan and Base Goku being able to dodge Gero's eye lasers), or the very notion of more power = more speed being outright contradicted on occasion. For instance, Base Goku when fighting Ginyu and after Ginyu took over his body was noted to have a faster body than Ginyu's purple one, despite the latter having a battle power 30k higher. Also, whilst speed increases along with power, the only case in which it's ever noticed to increase linearly is with Kaioken.

Again, provide actual evidence, not just conjecture.

There's plenty of evidence you just refuse to accept it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It is not conjecture as that's how scaling works in the Dragon Ball Universe.
In short They're that powerful cause they are written that way.
And the proof is right there.
Goku SuperSaiyan Blue is multiple times more powerful than God RED, the same God RED threatened to wipe out the entire Universe from existence.
Add a 20x Kaioken multiplier on top of that SuperSaiyan Blue multiplier. That far more than dominates the God RED Universal buster right there.
Before Ultra-Instinct was introduced Jiren suppressed was literally shown dominating SuperSaiyan Blue with Kaioken 20x applied.
Who also shook the infinite void.

Then you've clearly not been paying attention to how I've shown through examples that battle power increases don't scale linearly with destructive output increases.
The only feats that could come close to be used as viable evidence of Jiren being stronger are him being above Infinite Zamasu, who almost became one with the Universe (thereby having power only a step behind SoS Superman) and shaking the World of Void (though the last one is nigh-impossible to properly scale due to the fact that Jiren's power can actually be matched and surpassed making "infinite" a complete hyperbole). Those two feats are actually viable evidence for Jiren being the stronger one, not something as arbitrary and contradictive as battle power scaling. However, you have yet to prove he can match Peak Superman's speed.
Come on, I shouldn't be having to strengthen your argument for you.

The seththeprogrammer videos long past provided a rebuttal.

If they can be tagged and their speed surpassed, then they aren't omnipresent, it's as simple as that.
Going by seththeprogrammer's history as being biased towards the DB franchise, I neither have the time nor tolerance to watch one of his videos. If you're so dead set on using that as evidence, just bullet point a few of his arguments in your next response.

Again this is Superman.
He relies on the solar radiation, not just for power but to maintain durability.

Read the post above you. Equal opportunities for both fighters.

Powerful attacks can deplete him.

And the same can be said for Jiren, otherwise what reason would he have to meditate and conserve his Ki?

There's plenty of evidence you just refuse to accept it.

If you seriously find battle power scaling as being viable evidence and better to use than actual feats, there's no point in my even continuing this debate.

 

[VampireWicked]

It is not conjecture as that's how scaling works in the Dragon Ball Universe.
In short They're that powerful cause they are written that way.
And the proof is right there.
Goku SuperSaiyan Blue is multiple times more powerful than God RED, the same God RED threatened to wipe out the entire Universe from existence.
Add a 20x Kaioken multiplier on top of that SuperSaiyan Blue multiplier. That far more than dominates the God RED Universal buster right there.
Before Ultra-Instinct was introduced Jiren suppressed was literally shown dominating SuperSaiyan Blue with Kaioken 20x applied.
Who also shook the infinite void.

Then you've clearly not been paying attention to how I've shown through examples that battle power increases don't scale linearly with destructive output increases.
The only feats that could come close to be used as viable evidence of Jiren being stronger are him being above Infinite Zamasu, who almost became one with the Universe (thereby having power only a step behind SoS Superman) and shaking the World of Void (though the last one is nigh-impossible to properly scale due to the fact that Jiren's power can actually be matched and surpassed making "infinite" a complete hyperbole). Those two feats are actually viable evidence for Jiren being the stronger one, not something as arbitrary and contradictive as battle power scaling. However, you have yet to prove he can match Peak Superman's speed.
Come on, I shouldn't be having to strengthen your argument for you.

The seththeprogrammer videos long past provided a rebuttal.

If they can be tagged and their speed surpassed, then they aren't omnipresent, it's as simple as that.
Going by seththeprogrammer's history as being biased towards the DB franchise, I neither have the time nor tolerance to watch one of his videos. If you're so dead set on using that as evidence, just bullet point a few of his arguments in your next response.

Again this is Superman.
He relies on the solar radiation, not just for power but to maintain durability.

Read the post above you. Equal opportunities for both fighters.

Powerful attacks can deplete him.

And the same can be said for Jiren, otherwise what reason would he have to meditate and conserve his Ki?

There's plenty of evidence you just refuse to accept it.

If you seriously find battle power scaling as being viable evidence and better to use than actual feats, there's no point in my even continuing this debate.

This is a hypothetical argument Seth & others have already gone through & have made better much more compelling valid points i'd rather side with.

And freakin hypotheticals involving anything DC Comics vs anything Dragon Ball has gotten so old & tired.

So claim whatever you want but i've just gotten bored at this point, & until you or anyone else has made valid points that exceed how compelling theirs already are than i see no reason to change my mind.

Hey at least this got 11replies here.

 

[Southern Gothic]

>open thread and engage in conversation
>type several hundred words worth of argumentative dialogue
>claim to not care and that someone else, somewhere else has already solved this debate so it's not worth the time

 

[VampireWicked]

>open thread and engage in conversation
>type several hundred words worth of argumentative dialogue
>claim to not care and that someone else, somewhere else has already solved this debate so it's not worth the time

Who the smurf is that a reply to ?

Cause i never said it wasn't worth my time.
I simply said there hasn't been any valid points made which aren't the same old said & done views, in to which none that actually exceed how compelling & reasonable the arguments tossed together by others are that i've already sided with.

And unless i've misread neither me or Captain Cadaver suggested this hypothetical battle was ever solved.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Superman vaporises Jiren.

 

[Keedounan]

For reasons already stated, Super gets stomped.

 

[ahill1]

For reasons already stated, Super gets stomped.

Do you mean Superman gets stomped?

 

[Keedounan]

For reasons already stated, Super gets stomped.

Do you mean Superman gets stomped?

I actually meant that Superman stomps, but for some reasons, I said the opposite.

 

[Warmmedown]

JIren destoyed 5 universes

Jiren kicks the hay and stomps farmer boy Clark