Joseph Joestar

[ahill1]

Jojo's part 2... On his peak... How far does he get on the DB world? What about HxH? OP?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Think this ought to be placed in Other Versus, though it'll first need to be clarified which verse should be the main focus.

Joseph is generally agreed to be at least City Block level via scaling from Tarkus destroying part of a cliff in Part 1. In terms of speed, he has FTL combat speed based on him being able to go up against Kars, as well as dodging a ray of light from the Red Stone of Aja during Lisa Lisa's demonstration. That said:

DB Verse - Solos the 22nd TB with ease, but can do absolutely nothing to stop Old Piccolo Daimao and those of his tier.
OP Verse - With a good strategy, he might beat someone such as Alabasta Crocodile due to superior speed and good stamina, though it's doubtful he'd get any higher when he even that level would oneshot him if his opponent got a clean hit.
HxH Verse - Gets past Chimera Ant Arc Kid Gon/Killua as long as he's not hit with a Jajanken, but would lack the ability to produce a strategy capable of taking down high tiers like Hisoka, Illumi, Chrollo, etc due to their far greater durability and attack power.

 

[ahill1]

Thought I placed this on Other Versus. My mistake. It can be moved then.

 

[SSJ2]

Moved.

He gets stomped by Bacterian.

 

[Notaka]

I can't see him going too far. Like Captain Cadaver said, Joseph has some good feats like hanging against Kars and dodging light from stone of Aja. But then you have stuff like

Spoiler: Part 6 Spoilers

Star Platinum being slower than MiH who at the time, was as fast as a speeding train

which somewhat retcons speed feat. But let's say he has FTL combat speed. He's faster than the three verses but he lacks the attack potency to do anything worthwhile.

DBverse: I can see him winning the 21st tournament at best due to his superior speed and intelligence. Anything above tho is too much for him. Guys like General Blue, Tao...etc are physically above anything in JoJo.

OPverse:This one is tough. One Piece is a series who demonstrated immense physical strength in like the first 100 chapters. The strongest guy I can see Joseph taking out is Arlong. Or maybe even Crocodile like Captain Cadaver mentioned. Either way, he's also not going to get far here, too.

HxHverse: This is where Joseph would shine the most, as unlike Dragon Ball and One Piece, Fights are a lot more tactical in HxH. And Tactics are Joseph's forte. Assuming Nen = Hamon, I don't see Joseph having much trouble here. He's faster than most, if not, all of the characters and can physically contend with the majority of the cast. The only ones I'd say he couldn't beat would be the top tiers(Netero, Meruem, Royal Guards, Adult Gon...etc)

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Spoiler: Part 6 Spoilers

Star Platinum being slower than MiH who at the time, was as fast as a speeding train

Spoiler

That would mainly be due to MiH's time acceleration. Also the Stand entry page for Star Platinum: The World in Part 6 clearly states that his punches are FTL, aligning with Part 2 and 3 speed feats, so the Part 6 feat if scrutinised is at best an outlier.

Guys like General Blue, Tao...etc are physically above anything in JoJo.

Tarkus' City Block level cliff breaking >>> Taopaipai's Large Building level pillar throw

 

[Notaka]

Spoiler: Part 6 Spoilers

Star Platinum being slower than MiH who at the time, was as fast as a speeding train

Spoiler

That would mainly be due to MiH's time acceleration. Also the Stand entry page for Star Platinum: The World in Part 6 clearly states that his punches are FTL, aligning with Part 2 and 3 speed feats, so the Part 6 feat if scrutinised is at best an outlier.

Guys like General Blue, Tao...etc are physically above anything in JoJo.

Tarkus' City Block level cliff breaking >>> Taopaipai's Large Building level pillar throw

How do you figure what level they're at? Tarkus breaking cliffs and Taopaipai pillar throw. Calcs?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How do you figure what level they're at? Tarkus breaking cliffs and Taopaipai pillar throw. Calcs?

Yes. Calcs that generally have more to offer than a general vague observation.

 

[Notaka]

How do you figure what level they're at? Tarkus breaking cliffs and Taopaipai pillar throw. Calcs?

Yes. Calcs that generally have more to offer than a general vague observation.

Point taken, but I don't think Joseph can be scaled off Tarkus' attack. The pillar men and Dio I can see since they're > Tarkus, but there's no guarantee that Joseph is physically stronger. Especially when Joseph was established to be someone who was always weaker than his enemy in strength and therefore had to use his wits to win. I'd say that he would be at best Wall level, basing of that one feat where he ran his finger through the corrupt cop's nose.

 

[Papasmurf]

Jonathan (who still struggled with Part 1 Dio) stomped Tarkus and was shown to be stronger than him tho.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Spoiler: Part 6 Spoilers

Star Platinum being slower than MiH who at the time, was as fast as a speeding train

Spoiler

That would mainly be due to MiH's time acceleration. Also the Stand entry page for Star Platinum: The World in Part 6 clearly states that his punches are FTL, aligning with Part 2 and 3 speed feats, so the Part 6 feat if scrutinised is at best an outlier.

Spoiler

I would argue that the part 6 stand entry isn't something to put much stock into as it also claims Jotaro's stand is the strongest and most invncible in the world. Other evidence that contradicts Star Platinum's Faster Than Light speeds come from after part 3; Crazy Diamond a stand similar to Star Platinum, capable of forcing him to use Time Stop only exceeding 300KM/H. All of Star Platinum's insane faster than light feats only really appeared in part 3. And part 3 was the most inconsistent part for what stands were even capable of. The only time he's ever mentioned to be as fast as light is against Red Hot Chilli Peppers in a throw away line, and even thats debatable considering he's capable of using time stop.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Point taken, but I don't think Joseph can be scaled off Tarkus' attack. The pillar men and Dio I can see since they're > Tarkus, but there's no guarantee that Joseph is physically stronger. Especially when Joseph was established to be someone who was always weaker than his enemy in strength and therefore had to use his wits to win.

Jonathan (post-Zepelli death) >> Tarkus in raw strength. The same Jonathan needed a resolve boost to overpower Dio, who was far below the Pillar Men, whereas post-training Joseph had strong enough Hamon to deal them fatal blows, regardless of the strategies behind them.

In other words, Post-training Joseph >/>> Peak Jonathan >>> Tarkus

 

[Notaka]

Point taken, but I don't think Joseph can be scaled off Tarkus' attack. The pillar men and Dio I can see since they're > Tarkus, but there's no guarantee that Joseph is physically stronger. Especially when Joseph was established to be someone who was always weaker than his enemy in strength and therefore had to use his wits to win.

Jonathan (post-Zepelli death) >> Tarkus in raw strength. The same Jonathan needed a resolve boost to overpower Dio, who was far below the Pillar Men, whereas post-training Joseph had strong enough Hamon to deal them fatal blows, regardless of the strategies behind them.

In other words, Post-training Joseph >/>> Peak Jonathan >>> Tarkus

I get what you mean, but I don't think it works like this. Joseph might have better hamon than Jonathan but that doesn't mean he's physically stronger than Jonathan is. He hasn't shown physical feats that put him on par with Jonathan.

Actually, I don't know if Joseph had stronger hamon than Jonathan. Jonathan was noted to be a prodigy by Zeppeli. But Joseph does have better mastery of it than Jonathan.

Speaking about Dio, It was quite clear Jonathan overpowered him through brute strength. Hard to say the same thing about Joseph, as he'll most likely have to outsmart Dio to beat him.

Even if Joseph had better hamon than Jonathan, what good would it do for him if he isn't as physically strong as Jonathan was? He's not fighting against vampires or pillar men in HxH, OP or DB.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I get what you mean, but I don't think it works like this. Joseph might have better hamon than Jonathan but that doesn't mean he's physically stronger than Jonathan is. He hasn't shown physical feats that put him on par with Jonathan.

Having the attack power to severely damage the bodies of pillar men is all the proof necessary as for how great his destructive capability is. Saying he didn't present the strength feats when scaling makes up for it would be the same as saying Cell isn't a planet buster because we never saw him do it, or using the 40 tons argument to say why Boo Arc characters would lose to people far below planet level.

Speaking about Dio, It was quite clear Jonathan overpowered him through brute strength. Hard to say the same thing about Joseph, as he'll most likely have to outsmart Dio to beat him.

Leaving aside a lot of that being unsubstantiated, there's sufficient evidence of Joseph being a big threat to Dio and supporting the idea of his young self being above him in Part 3. Dio clearly saw there was some level of precaution to be taken in attack Joseph directly due to his Hamon, and this was an old Joseph who'd been out of practice for years. Though Dio wasn't at full power due to Jonathan's body not being fully under his command yet, such is doubly so for a very rusty Joseph.
This is even further apparent of how much regard Dio treats Jonathan is when he disposed of a Hamon expert like Dire as though he was nothing.

Also, if we're comparing feats, compare someone on par with Joseph like Caesar surviving a direct hit from Wammu's Divine Sandstorm (albeit, with fatal wounds) and still being able to move to Jonathan being completely defeated by Dio's Space Ripper Stingy Eyes, an attack that should logically have far less energy. Even taking into account Jonathan being off-guard, there's no way the latter attack's power can compare to the former.

Even if Joseph had better hamon than Jonathan, what good would it do for him if he isn't as physically strong as Jonathan was? He's not fighting against vampires or pillar men in HxH, OP or DB.

Did you forget about Dracula Man?

Hamon can still work to amplify his attacks and durability, as seen when used on those who aren't vampires and pillar men and on himself for protection. Even if not as potent on humans and the like, it's not completely useless.

 

[Notaka]

Having the attack power to severely damage the bodies of pillar men is all the proof necessary as for how great his destructive capability is. Saying he didn't present the strength feats when scaling makes up for it would be the same as saying Cell isn't a planet buster because we never saw him do it, or using the 40 tons argument to say why Boo Arc characters would lose to people far below planet level.

It doesn't work like that. We know the pillar men are horribly weak to hamon. Joseph managed to wound Wamuu with his cracker volley pre training, am I to believe that cracker volley could bust a house down? The pillar men are simply weak to it, that's all. Hamon is something that ignores their durability. Otherwise we would end up with humans having higher higher than building level durability because hamon doesn't severely injure them, which is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Also the idea of scaling in shows like DB or One Piece doesn't work well with JoJo. Not only JoJo stopped being a series that relied on brute force to win fights and focused on out smarting the enemy to win ever since part 1 ended, like I said, Hamon is something that ignores the durability of vampires and pillar men. It doesn't translate well into destructive capacity. I'd say it's more like "Hax" against Pillar men.

Leaving aside a lot of that being unsubstantiated, there's sufficient evidence of Joseph being a big threat to Dio and supporting the idea of his young self being above him in Part 3. Dio clearly saw there was some level of precaution to be taken in attack Joseph directly due to his Hamon, and this was an old Joseph who'd been out of practice for years. Though Dio wasn't at full power due to Jonathan's body not being fully under his command yet, such is doubly so for a very rusty Joseph.
This is even further apparent of how much regard Dio treats Jonathan is when he disposed of a Hamon expert like Dire as though he was nothing.

Dio underwent character development and came to fear hamon in part 3 after looking down on it and getting defeated by it in part 1. But I disagree with Joseph > Part 3 DIO because stands are way above hamon. Young Joseph would win against Oldseph in a fight, but against DIO, Old Joseph would stand a better chance than Young Joseph, because Old Joseph has tools to deal with DIO and his stand whereas Young Joseph doesn't. This is another reason why the classic power-scaling doesn't work well in JoJo. It's better suited for series that rely more on brute force(Bleach, One Piece, Dragon Ball, Naruto...etc).

Also, if we're comparing feats, compare someone on par with Joseph like Caesar surviving a direct hit from Wammu's Divine Sandstorm (albeit, with fatal wounds) and still being able to move to Jonathan being completely defeated by Dio's Space Ripper Stingy Eyes, an attack that should logically have far less energy. Even taking into account Jonathan being off-guard, there's no way the latter attack's power can compare to the former.

This is where power-scaling can work. We do know Caesar and Joseph are quite close in strength so if Caesar could survive the divine sandstorm, so can Joseph. However, as obvious as it is, it's a durability feat and not a destructive capacity one. They even note that it has incredible power so I don't think Joseph and Caesar can reach Wamuu's output of attack potency.

Also, I assume you're referring as when they were on the ship, right? Dio's attack is way weaker than Wammu's, that much is true. But what you have to realize is that it's way more precise than the divine sandstorm, Dio aimed right at Jonathan's throat, which prevented him from using hamon. Wamuu's attack has more power but lacks precision; it's an attack which hits all over the body. Also IIRC didn't Jonathan die because he was unable to breathe?

Hamon can still work to amplify his attacks and durability, as seen when used on those who aren't vampires and pillar men and on himself for protection. Even if not as potent on humans and the like, it's not completely useless.

Can it? I don't remember. Care to show an example?

And yeah, Hamon isn't useless against humans but it took hamon x100 stronger than Joseph's so that it could melt human flesh. With his hamon, Joseph wouldn't do a lot to OP, DB, HxH characters except maybe knocking them out cold.

TLDR; I don't think Joseph damaging Pillar men with his hamon can be counted as destructive feat, when its more like "hax" against them. Power scaling, it doesn't work well. It only works with Vampires, Pillar men, Zombies and Jonathan because the chain is Pillar men > Vampires > Zombies and Jonathan showed physical feats to beat Dio, a vampire and because Part 1 was more oriented towards brute force fighting. Saying Joseph > Jonathan would be true only in some contexts, such as fighting vampires and pillar men, because Joseph's way to deal with them(Hamon) is much better than Jonathans. But against an opponent who hamon doesn't quite work against in a straight fight(like Kid Goku for example), I'm inclined to say Jonathan has more chances of winning than Joseph does because he showed better strength feats.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Yeah. Hamon is a natural counter to Pillarmen and Vampires as it emulates the rays of sunlight. However, it also amplifies strength, and durability but nowhere near that of a vampire and a pillarman.