My Super Saiyan discussion

[withheldforprivacy]

After Dagon's, here comes Withheldforprivacy's analysis. I'll analyze why SSJ is not a multiplier and why the
gap between Namek SSJ Goku-Android Saga SSJ Vegeta is minimal...

-After studying the subject, i see a great point in Dagon's thread. Super Saiyan was introduced as a well of
unfathomable, newfound power, not something like Oozaru or Kaioken; in the latter case, AT would have
also given the multiplier, like he did with Oozaru and Kaioken.

-SSJ2s (Kid Gohan, Majin Vegeta, Goku) were all at around the same ballpark of strength. The same
went with SSJ Gods and Blue SSJs (Goku, Vegeta). So, i don't see why things should be different with SSJ.
Each transformation in DB is a level of power on its own, not a multiplication tied to the user's previous
power.

-The cap of a base Saiyan's power is at the low millions. When the SSJ boost adds hundreds of millions to
that (150 millions, if you go by Daiz), then, adding a few more millions to your base doesn't really make
a difference to your power at your SSJ state. Of course, this changes when you unlock Grade forms or
master the SSJ, but that's another story; unmastered Super Saiyans are all at about the same level. That
also explains why Alternate Gohan trained for 15 years and still couldn't beat the Androids. After adding
a few more base millions, he got carried away and was like ''wow, i'm a lot stronger, i have a chance now''
but, as i said, this practically made no difference at his overall power.
The above are implied many times during Androids Arc:
1. Piccolo mentioning Goku's ace is SSJ, not saying anything about any significant progress.
2. Vegeta being the only one stated to have made significant gains, and that statement was made only
after he showed his transformation. Goku and Trunks already had SSJ, so no significant gains.
3. Vegeta saying that ''Super Saiyan level is outdone left and right''. If there were weak and strong
Super Saiyans, that statement wouldn't make any sense, since the ''weak'' Super Saiyans would have
already been outdone or at least rivalled by Androids 19 and 20, but Vegeta only made that comment
when 17/18 and Cell showed up.

Now, about Freeza...
-At Namek Saga, the author's intention was to make 100% Freeza and SSJ two powers unrivalled by any
in the universe, two powers in a tier of their own. So, Freeza is close to that level.
I don't think that, at Mecha Freeza saga, AT wanted to retcon the close gap between Freeza/SSJ. But,
since he wanted not to drag the Freeza issue any further, he showed Trunks winning without Mecha Freeza
ever going full power.
In other words, Organic Freeza, Mecha Freeza and all Unmastered SSJ are at the same tier, which is
moderately below Androids, who won with their infinite energy.

I know the above contradict some stuff at Lone Warrior (SSJ Trunks vs Base Gohan, 17's ''less than half
statement''), but, come on, this chapter was hastily and crappily made, because the story had to fit in
15 pages.
If AT wrote a whole saga or a movie based on Trunkses future, i'm sure the Gohan/Androids fights would be
more even, like in the TV special.

And now, some PLs (using Daiz for reference)...

Organic Freeza 100%: 140.000.000

Namek Goku
-base: 3.000.000
-SSJ: 153.000.000

Mecha Freeza (unseen max): 160.000.000

Alternate Trunks (debut)
-base: 2.500.000
-SSJ: 152.500.000

Yardrat Goku
-base: 4.000.000
-SSJ: 154.000.000

Alternate Trunks (second coming)
-base: 5.000.000
-SSJ: 155.000.000

Goku (post 3 years)
-base: 10.000.000
-SSJ: 160.000.000

Vegeta
-base: 10.000.000
-SSJ: 160.000.000

Eighteen: 180.000.000

Seventeen: 225.000.000

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I could maybe see this.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

So how about MSSjin?

 

[SSJ2]

I thought this was going to be a discussion about me.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I thought this was going to be a discussion about me.

:elmo

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I totally agree with Super-Saiyan not being a multiplier. Kaio-Ken is for that Super-Saiyan is something-else, other-wise Cell Saga and trying to find something beyond Super-Saiyan to fight the androids and Cell makes no sense. If Super-Saiyan was a multiplier they could just increase their regular states and grow stronger until they can fight Cell.

 

[SSJ2]

Their regular states could not net stronger.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Wow. I didn't remember I had posted that. I should do a PL list based on those guidelines.

 

[GSM123]

I agree, other than perhaps the Freeza retcon. It's stated Freeza has the biggest power in the universe, so it's unlikely that was retconed. Either Trunks was wrong (Unlikely) or he's not stronger then Freeza.

Perhaps it could also be the case that Trunks >= SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Goku ~ Cyborg Freeza, but that's unlikely. You'd have to do some mental gymnastics about Kami saying Vegeta > Trunks.

 

[Tapion]

This strongly reminds me of Bringer of Death's formula for SSj and Grades II and III. Was this based on that?

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Tapion[/mention] what formula is that?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Any SSJ > Freeza (pre-FnF)

 

[GSM123]

Going with Withheld's logic minus the retcon, I think we would end up with something like this:

Freeza: 140
~ Cyborg: 154

SSJ Goku: 150
SSJ Vegeta: 156.25
SSJ Trunks: 160
Piccolo: 112.5

Cell: 170
Cyborg #18: 200
Cyborg #17: 220
Kamiccolo (Weighted): 200
~ Full Power: 225

Meh...

Any SSJ > Freeza (pre-FnF)

Even Future Kid Trunks?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah. I've also had this believe for a long time. There'd be no sense in the Freeza Saga if a Saiyan became a SSJ if Freeza could still just finger-flick them in his 1st Form.

 

[Tapion]

@Tapion what formula is that?

A specific number in hundreds of millions + the base form

For example, SSj Vegeta's PL was "120,000,000 + base"

 

[GSM123]

Yeah. I've also had this believe for a long time. There'd be no sense in the Freeza Saga if a Saiyan became a SSJ if Freeza could still just finger-flick them in his 1st Form.

So what do you think about Base Gohan manhandling SSJ Trunks?

A specific number in hundreds of millions + the base form

For example, SSj Vegeta's PL was "120,000,000 + base"

So it's a additive boost? That's... Not good. 2

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Trunks was tired. Gohan seemed he wasn't, so probably a case of Gohan having been a Super-Saiyan before and then powering-down.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

You'd have to do some mental gymnastics about Kami saying Vegeta > Trunks.

We can argue he was referring to base levels.