My understanding on the "timeline" shenanigans.

[ahill1]

I'll be posting here what I get regarding the timelines in the DB verse when reading the manga. Super won't be considered.

It's also worth noting that I am operating under the POV that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza and Cold in future Cell's timeline, not Goku, based on this panel of the manga:

Cell is explaining how he got the Z warriors cells and it shows Freeza and Cold being killed by Trunks and in a similar fashion happened in the main timeline (I'll call the timeline we are more familiar with of "main" timeline and the 1st timeline [the one which originated everything else] of original timeline).

You could argue that AT just recycled the art in that panel, but I don't think such explanation is necessary. Whilst possible (considering AT recycled the panels of Vegeta being defeated on Earth as well as Piccolo being defeated in Cell's very explanation, as well as recycling some panels in the Boo saga, where we have even Kuririn making a joke and a Tori-bot appearing saying the editor shall not pay him), I don't think it'a a need to think so in this case. Sure, it'd obviously raise the following question: "shouldn't Goku have survived then? Because Trunks would have obviously handed him the medicine."

But the truth is that Goku could have died from other ways besides the heart disease... it's very possible he was assassinated by the androids much like the other warriors. Sure, he wasn't killed by the androids in the main timeline, he survived and trained in the RoSaT... but you have to remember that there was an important being influencing what was happening in the main timeline: Cell! Yeah, that's right, the fact that Cell travelled to the main timeline hugely influenced its happenings, and it might have even changed the time where Goku got ill. It's possible that in future Cell's timeline, without there being a Cell there influencing what occurred, Goku also got ill not too long after Freeza's defeat... and then he was just fine when the androids appeared and would have, along the other Warriors, have confronted them... and then was killed by them.

What is interesting is that it would imply that Goku being saved by the medicine didn't help in saving the world... much like in future Trunks' timeline, the world was also doomed even when Goku got the medicine... and the direct responsible for the World's salvation (yeah, that's right, guys!) was Cell! Yeah, considering that in Cell's timeline where Goku got the medicine the World was still destroyed by them killing machines, the one altering what happened and then saving the World would be Cell also traveling to the time line and changing its happenings.

Then, that's what happens, from my POV (notice that I am not arguing that Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline is a fact, and am perfectly well if you disagree, but I think it makes sense):




History A1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and Cold. The Saiyajin then dies of a heart disease and the androids # 17 and # 18 dominate the events of A1, forcing Trunks A1 to travel to the past (pretty much a parallel of Mirai Trunks' timeline). The rest of the events are unknown.

Past Alternative A2 - Trunks of the future A1 defeats Freeza and cold. However this is still not enough to prevent Son Goku's death, the androids sow the destruction, but due to unknown events they are somehow disabled (some people saynit's due to a remote control). Pass 23 years from the incubation of Cell A2 and he starts his search for the androids. The A2 Trunks decides to travel to the past to change the events, however chooses 1 year before the arrival of Freeza and Cold for whatever reason. With no knowledge that there was a third android (Cell), the Trunks A2 is defeated easily by Cell A2 and this latter returns to the past to attain his perfect form. In this example the Cell A2 will travel to the past alternative B2 (explained below).

History B1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and cold. The Saiyajin dies of a heart disease and the androids #17 and #18 dominate the events until Trunks B1 travels to the past. With his return after the triumph in the past B2, the trunks B1 destroys the androids #17 and #18 and years later defeats the Cell B1, preventing him from returning to the past. In this line of events the Cell B1 is aware of the existence of Trunks B1, but the data itself is unknown.

Past alternative B2 - the Cell A2 travels to the past without being aware of the parameters of the journey and reaches this new past 1 year before the arrival of Trunks B1. Then, it happens the history portrayed in the manga, the Cell B2 is destroyed while still in larva, the Cell A2 reaches his perfect form and is defeated by Son Gohan in the Cell Games. The past alternative B2 is saved and Trunks B1 returns to his time and saves it as well.



Also, it's worth noting that, in the future Cell's timeline, Goku probably didn't die from a heart virus (considering that the future Trunks who came from yet another timeline should have obviously handed him the medicine)... he likely died because of the androids, so as far as the Trunks from Future Cell's timeline knows, Goku wouldn't be this game-changer as it was portrayed by Bulma in Future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline of the future Trunks who went to future Celk's timeline)... so that could explain why that Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't try to travel to the past until he had already killed the androids... he didn't travel to the past to hand Goku the medicine, as the Goku from his timeline dies in another way. So the Trunks from Cell's timeline obviously perceived Goku in a different way compared to the aforementioned Trunkss.

Moreover, there isn't a need to have a timeline to where the Trunks from future Cell's timeline travelled to... that isn't hinted at the manga, and he could very well have destroyed the androids from his time without having to resort to traveling back in time... maybe the Trunks from Cell's timeline also found the scripts in the underground laboratory somehow, dunno.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is it just me or Goku has a hand missing on the Saiyan Arc footage?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But i agree, regardless. I remember Speedster from Kanzenshuu made a chart explaining the whole timeline thing, even explaining why Cell went to a time before Freeza's death even thought Trunks was supposed to go to a time after the Androids were killed. If i find his chart i'll make a triple post.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's the chart as i finish my triple post no jutsu

 

[ahill1]

I'll try to study it later. I was reading it when you posted it here. DBGTFO's chart seems perfect and is just like mine.

 

[ahill1]

It's good to see that Speedster as well as dbgtFO have Trunks killing Freeza on Cell's timeline... I thought I was kind of alone on that one, but it seems more people (Victorious does too) think that as well. Almost everyone from the Portugal forum does though, they treated it like something factual.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, Speedster have some goods views and posts... I think he'd be a good member here. May invite him some day.

Some people think Trunks killing Freeza was a plothole, right? Kenshi is one of those people, i think.

 

[ahill1]

I see now. But well, Cell ending up in the main timeline is still explained even on my own timeline theory, since I don't see the need to there be a timeline to where Trunks from Cell's timeline must have traveled to and obtained there a crucial thing to defeat the androids of his timeline... I think it's fair to assume the Trunks from Cell's timeline managed to defeat the androids on his own, and went back in time to before the androids' activation so he could create a new world free of the androids (maybe Trunks thought that saving the warriors from the androids would have a direct effect on his own timeline, since the Trunks we know of, from another timeline, seemed to realize that what happanes in one timeline won't have a direct effect in a future timeline linked to that only after talking about that with the Z warriors in the Sapceship)... and Cell would be the direct responsible for the creation of Trunks' timeline as well as the main timeline, since the Trunks that happened to appear as a consequence of Cell's time travel should have his own timeline as well (imagine if Trunks turned back time one minute before he was going to kilçl Mecha Freeza... he'd create TWO timeline, because the Trunks that was about to kill Freeza would have to have his own timeline as well).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Dude, you lost me. But by what i understood, i agree.

 

[ahill1]

I basically meant that people (me included some time ago) see Cell traveling back to before the androids' activation as a plothole, when he should logically have traveled to a time where they were already destroyed considering Trunks wanted to basically (assumed) tell everyone that everything went okay with him and that they shouldn't worry (much like the Trunks we know of would do and did)... but that's just a plot hole if you assume the Trunks from Cell's timeline should have gone to another timeline where he got the blue prints to kill the androids or whatever, but this other timeline to where Trunks from Cell's timeline should have gone for was never specified or even hinted at in the manga. Then, if there isn't such timeline, it's easy to explain why Trunks set his time machine to a time where the androids weren't even active... so he would build a World totally free of them killing machines and a World in which the Z warriors actually survived, which maybe (it actually doesn't, but Trunks from the Cell's timeline might have thought that it does) directly influenced his World, which would then be blessed (according to Trunks thoughts, only) by the presence of the assassinated Z warriors.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Toriyama is not only a biologist by discovering "S-cell" but also a great theoretical physicist.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I'll be posting here what I get regarding the timelines in the DB verse when reading the manga. Super won't be considered.

It's also worth noting that I am operating under the POV that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza and Cold in future Cell's timeline, not Goku, based on this panel of the manga:

Cell is explaining how he got the Z warriors cells and it shows Freeza and Cold being killed by Trunks and in a similar fashion happened in the main timeline (I'll call the timeline we are more familiar with of "main" timeline and the 1st timeline [the one which originated everything else] of original timeline).

You could argue that AT just recycled the art in that panel, but I don't think such explanation is necessary. Whilst possible (considering AT recycled the panels of Vegeta being defeated on Earth as well as Piccolo being defeated in Cell's very explanation, as well as recycling some panels in the Boo saga, where we have even Kuririn making a joke and a Tori-bot appearing saying the editor shall not pay him), I don't think it'a a need to think so in this case. Sure, it'd obviously raise the following question: "shouldn't Goku have survived then? Because Trunks would have obviously handed him the medicine."

But the truth is that Goku could have died from other ways besides the heart disease... it's very possible he was assassinated by the androids much like the other warriors. Sure, he wasn't killed by the androids in the main timeline, he survived and trained in the RoSaT... but you have to remember that there was an important being influencing what was happening in the main timeline: Cell! Yeah, that's right, the fact that Cell travelled to the main timeline hugely influenced its happenings, and it might have even changed the time where Goku got ill. It's possible that in future Cell's timeline, without there being a Cell there influencing what occurred, Goku also got ill not too long after Freeza's defeat... and then he was just fine when the androids appeared and would have, along the other Warriors, have confronted them... and then was killed by them.

What is interesting is that it would imply that Goku being saved by the medicine didn't help in saving the world... much like in future Trunks' timeline, the world was also doomed even when Goku got the medicine... and the direct responsible for the World's salvation (yeah, that's right, guys!) was Cell! Yeah, considering that in Cell's timeline where Goku got the medicine the World was still destroyed by them killing machines, the one altering what happened and then saving the World would be Cell also traveling to the time line and changing its happenings.

Then, that's what happens, from my POV (notice that I am not arguing that Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline is a fact, and am perfectly well if you disagree, but I think it makes sense):




History A1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and Cold. The Saiyajin then dies of a heart disease and the androids # 17 and # 18 dominate the events of A1, forcing Trunks A1 to travel to the past (pretty much a parallel of Mirai Trunks' timeline). The rest of the events are unknown.

Past Alternative A2 - Trunks of the future A1 defeats Freeza and cold. However this is still not enough to prevent Son Goku's death, the androids sow the destruction, but due to unknown events they are somehow disabled (some people saynit's due to a remote control). Pass 23 years from the incubation of Cell A2 and he starts his search for the androids. The A2 Trunks decides to travel to the past to change the events, however chooses 1 year before the arrival of Freeza and Cold for whatever reason. With no knowledge that there was a third android (Cell), the Trunks A2 is defeated easily by Cell A2 and this latter returns to the past to attain his perfect form. In this example the Cell A2 will travel to the past alternative B2 (explained below).

History B1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and cold. The Saiyajin dies of a heart disease and the androids #17 and #18 dominate the events until Trunks B1 travels to the past. With his return after the triumph in the past B2, the trunks B1 destroys the androids #17 and #18 and years later defeats the Cell B1, preventing him from returning to the past. In this line of events the Cell B1 is aware of the existence of Trunks B1, but the data itself is unknown.

Past alternative B2 - the Cell A2 travels to the past without being aware of the parameters of the journey and reaches this new past 1 year before the arrival of Trunks B1. Then, it happens the history portrayed in the manga, the Cell B2 is destroyed while still in larva, the Cell A2 reaches his perfect form and is defeated by Son Gohan in the Cell Games. The past alternative B2 is saved and Trunks B1 returns to his time and saves it as well.



Also, it's worth noting that, in the future Cell's timeline, Goku probably didn't die from a heart virus (considering that the future Trunks who came from yet another timeline should have obviously handed him the medicine)... he likely died because of the androids, so as far as the Trunks from Future Cell's timeline knows, Goku wouldn't be this game-changer as it was portrayed by Bulma in Future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline of the future Trunks who went to future Celk's timeline)... so that could explain why that Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't try to travel to the past until he had already killed the androids... he didn't travel to the past to hand Goku the medicine, as the Goku from his timeline dies in another way. So the Trunks from Cell's timeline obviously perceived Goku in a different way compared to the aforementioned Trunkss.

Moreover, there isn't a need to have a timeline to where the Trunks from future Cell's timeline travelled to... that isn't hinted at the manga, and he could very well have destroyed the androids from his time without having to resort to traveling back in time... maybe the Trunks from Cell's timeline also found the scripts in the underground laboratory somehow, dunno.

If you try to go with Freeza/Cold killed by an adult Trunks in Cell's timeline, you will get into an endless mess.
Just accept that it was a writing error and that, in Cell's timeline, the icers were killed by Goku.

 

[ahill1]

If you try to go with Freeza/Cold killed by an adult Trunks in Cell's timeline, you will get into an endless mess.

Not really, there's no "endless mess". I think the timeline the Trunks that killed Freeza in Cell's timeline came from is the furthest in the future, so I don't think there's an infinite loop here.