GreatSaiyaman123 said:
I have it at three times and I don't see the problem with it. Initially Goku and Kuririn couldn't even budge that huge rock and after their training both could budge that despite Kuririn stating he couldn't budge it as much as Goku, and yet both of them were underestimating their gains. Goku still gained a good bit of power when his tail grew back to the point he could make Giran withdraw without having to fight him, and even Yamcha stated Goku was on a different level compared to before, besides Kuririn easily knocking down an opponent he considered to be troublesome many feets away, and such opponent could very well be on BoDB Goku's level based on Kuririn being worried about how much outclassed he was and even thinking about withdrawing the Tournament. Roshi also easily dodged a Rogafufuken from a pretty improved Yamcha, whereas the Rogafufuken of the past Yamcha was so fast Goku could barely see it, as this latter stated himself. I honestly think a 3x increase is fitting considering all this.Captain Cadaver said:
Battle Powers being used for Part 1 characters is fairly backwards logic and overall contradictive, when you think about it. Old Piccolo Daimao didn't need even half his power to defeat Goku, yet 23rd TB Tenshinhan is stronger than Piccolo Daimao ever was despite his battle power being below 250, and Yamcha and Kuririn were implied to at least be on par with Prime Piccolo Daimao. Roshi also states that the 4 Earthlings of the main group were far beyond his level by the time of the 23rd TB, despite the fact that if you go by the guidebook numbers you're stating, BoZ Yamcha, let alone 23rd TB Yamcha, can't beat 22nd TB Roshi, Tenshinhan or Goku, despite Kami having praised him and stated he may be able to surpass him in due time.Dragon Ball Fan said:
Which is why I assume Tenshinhan was suppressed when read by Bulma's scouter at the beginning of Z. It's that, or you assume the number given in the guidebook (260) for Goku and Piccolo Daimao is wrong. Without wanting to treat it as an inconsistency, I think Tenshinhan's full power was somewhere around the 300 mark, which is close to Goku's weighted power (334) and fits with their fight at the 23rd Budokai.
Uhh, they can beat 22nd Roshi... Yamcha and Kuririn were respectively 177 and 206 at the beginning of Z, while Roshi was 139 at the 22nd Budokai, so that's plenty of a difference to easily defeat Roshi.
I don't see where the implication is, but not that it matters too much.
I agree that part 1 was never tied to battle powers and that AT may not have even thought about them, but if the official guidebooks have done battle powers for the characters of part 1 DB, I don't see the reason for ignoring them when comparing two character's strength when there's not a necessary contradiction behind those numbers. The numbers given in the guidebooks make things very simple and I don't see the need to ditch out them.
There's no reason to do so when the entire point of the scene was a measuring stick of the top 3 Earthlings. 23rd TB Tenshinhan being anywhere near that high would make no sense either, given that he considered even a suppressed Kami to be in a completely different league from him and even at full power, Kami's "God's eyes" couldn't even keep track of Goku and Piccolo, whom by the time of the Raditz fight were far stronger than at the 23rd TB given Goku commenting on how they must've both been training intensly, not even being aware Piccolo's power at the time was his weighted level.Dragon Ball Fan said:
Goku is already able to tell Piccolo's initial level is beyond what Daimao's power ever was and Kuririn was able to put up a good fight with him. Meanwhile, Yamcha was able to receive praise from Kami as I already mentioned and even superficially injured him with the Sokidan.
Mr. Popo treat post-Choshinsui Goku as trash, telling him to just go home and calling him weak. Receiving praise from a far stronger being for your strength says a lot.
I have no problem with the guidebook exclusive levels that don't contradict what we're shown, such as post-Saichoro Gohan/Kuririn being at 14k and 13k respectively. For part 1, however, almost every entry given is in some way contradictive of what evidence we're given in the manga as I've already expanded on. In other words, there's no reason to take heed of a secondary source if it outright contradicts the chain of the primary source.
No, the point of the scene was showing that the scouter could spot people all over the world, which was what Bulma precisly stated right before reading Tenshinhan and Yamcha's battle powers.
Goku and Piccolo were both above 400, which would put them more than 1.33x above Goku and Tenshinhan. Based on Vegeta vs Cui, that can be considered as being in a whole new level compared to Tenshinhan.
Then the own manga numbers are contradicting what was shown in part 1, which is why I look at most statements about "using less than half oh his power" or "many times stronger" as mere hyperboles. Or, since battle powers merely calculate one's chi (and not other traits like strength, durability or so), Piccolo Daimao's statement might be taking into account those other atributes instead of just his battle power/chi.
Right behind Roshi's battle power, it's written "shoots the Kamehameha", so that figure (180) could be referring to his KHH instead of just his battle power. BTW, Roshi is listed as 139 in the Daizenshuu, so even if his regular battle power were meant to be at 180 (which might not be as it's said he "shoots the KMHMH), the Daizenshuu figure could be seen as a correction compared to what was stated in the Weekly Jump.
Or, Goku was taking into account that wasn't Piccolo's full power and that he was hiding power way beyond that, in a similar way he pretty much suspected Cell was above him despited Cell laying there in the ring at the level he beat Super Vegeta. Kuririn was pretty much on par with the initial level Piccolo used against him (which was arguably above the level Piccolo used to deal with the scrubs in the prelims), and considering Kuririn and Yamcha were very surprised with Goku and Tenshinhan's initial speed (which was equal to that of young King Piccolo), then it's obvious Goku was taking into account Piccolo's reserves. Kuririn and Yamcha ain't on young king Piccolo's level.
Then, going by that logic, Yamcha would be above Goku (post Sacred Water), what we know isn't true going by what was said above. So, we could try to explain why Kami Sama was praising Yamcha while Popoi considered Goku not-worthy. I think Popo was merely testing Goku to see if he had the will to train and check if he was worthy meet Kami Sama and had the will to train hard and fight Piccolo three years later, which he knew he would have to.
The one which actually contradicts what was shown (Piccolo and Goku at 260 and Tenshinhan at 250) I can make work when assuming Tenshinhan was suppressed when read by Bulma's scouter, which doesn't contradict much. Or, even if THAT number was contradictory, it doesn't mean Tsuru's standing to Oozaru Goku (beginning of Dragon Ball -- what we are discussing) is contradictory, so it doesn't make my reasoning wrong either.
If that were truly the case, the logical route of it instead locking onto the closest high powers of Yajirobe, Chichi and Gyumao would be what happened.Dragon Ball Fan said:
Goku had no idea Piccolo had trained with weighted clothing, nor that he was suppressing his power. Whatever level 23rd TB Piccolo's power is battle power-wise, it'd be below BoZ Piccolo's level of 322.
In other words, placing secondary sources over primary sources.
Whilst that may be the case, that'd also make trying to correlate battle powers and Part 1 power chains impossibly to concisely measure if you were to throw in such variables, making this entire debate about the validity of these guidebook levels pointless.
That would still imply that Roshi can in some way do something to BoZ Yamcha or Chaozu, when Roshi concedes he's in no way able to keep up with even the latter by the time of the 23rd TB.
Nothing directly proves this beyond assumption. Whilst it's later contradicted by the time of the finals, Piccolo viewed that his goal of world domination would be harder than he thought would suggest Kuririn is at least relevant to Daimao tier.
Which can't work beyond adding maybe another 10 points or so based on 322 > 23rd TB Piccolo >> Kami >>> 23rd TB Tenshinhan > Prime Piccolo Daimao.
The very contradictions of these Part 1 numbers (especially the Daimao, Kami, Popo idiocy) puts practically every Part 1 number as debatable. Comparitive feats and statements as evidence are of far greater value than what are overall just a set of numbers with little to no thought put into them. It doesn't make your reasoning wrong, but it doesn't make it directly right either.
Right after checking Tenshinhan and Yamcha with the scouter, Bulma stated that it can also spot people all over the world. She doesn't need to read Yajirobe or Chaozu to prover this point, considering she also said it spots powerful people all over the world, so spoting the most powerful people besides the ones that were there makes sense. They'd be wishing to locate the other powerful warriors, so that was the way of showing they could do it with this nw device. Tenshinhan doesn't need to be at full power there.
Not really. Goku just showed surprise at the fact that Piccolo had been training armored, but that in no way implies weighted Piccolo was below his 23rd Budokai self. Even if Piccolo were putting out power below his ful ppwer 23rd self, the surprise coming from Piccolo fighting armored could still raise in Goku's head as Goku couldn't fully access Piccolo's power until he fought with him in the 23rd Budokai. He just commented on Piccolo's power when this latter showed a glimpse of his power in the prelims. So this proves nothing.
No, because the numbers from beginning of Z were still given in the manga, so they are still a manga's source. If they contradict what was shown in the manga you can either a) ignore them or b) think those lines in part 1 which denoted a huge power difference (many times stronger and such) were hyperboles or not fully in line with a "many times stronger" increase via a scouter increase.
The debate would be about how Oozaru Goku (from Beginning of DB) compares to 22nd Budokai Kuririn, and since Tsuru has an offcial battle power of 120 and the aforementioned Oozaru Goku has one of 100, I have no reasons to contest the former's superiority. The Daizenshuu's numbers might have some errors depending of your interpretations, but that's in no way a reason to write the off in this specific reason, as here there's nothing exactly going against them.
Roshi states he is no longer any match for those guys, but that in no way necessarily implies his concentrated attack shoudln't be able to do anything to them. If he is below to them battle power wise, and the other ones have powerful attacks comparable with the KHH, then it stands a reason he'd be no match for them.
There's no assumption. Kuririn stated that both (Goku and Tenshinhan) weren't normal when going by their showcased speed, and Yamcha was surprised by the fact that Tenshinhan considered Goku slow. Since they were only watching their fight and not feeling their blows, what they'd be left to analyze would be their speed. So if a speed akin to young Piccolo Daimao is already out of normal for them, so much so Yamcha doesn't even understand how Tenshinhan can label that as "slow", then they are significantly below that level. That much is shown. So, if Kuririn could match the initial level Piccolo used to fight him, then it's to be expected that the level he used to fight the scrubs in the Budokai wouldn't be above the level his father used to battle Goku three years ago, based on what was said above.
Which can work considering BoZ weighted Piccolo doesn't have to be above his 23rd Budokai full power level.
The contradiction should make that used number wrong, not ALL numbers listed into the guidebook, specially when this "Tenshinhan vs Piccolo Daimao" doesn't even have to be taken as a contradiction if one assumes Tenshinhan wasn't at full power when read by the scouter, which is also possible considering he also saw how casual Goku was when fighting King Chappa to the point his chi couldn't even be sensed. But maybe if that was a contradiction (it doesn't have to be), then the ones I am arguing about doesn't necessarily have to be ones. An error made in one part of the guidebooks doesn't automatically turns everything else said wrong... maybe more questionable, but not wrong.
