Pre RoSaT Super Saiyans

[ahill1]

While there're quite a lot of evidences suggesting the strongest Super Saiyan (Vegeta from the androids saga) is way strongest than Namek SSJ Goku, sometimes the narrative seems to suggest the SSJs are all close in power, like if were a fixed plateau of power. Vegeta, for instance, says they are easily surpassing THE SSJ, referring to it in a general sense... Piccolo does the same initially, saying not knowing the SSJs would be #20's undoing. Trunks also says he doesn't have to worry about the "new strange thing" since he's a SSJ... so, like I said, the SSJ is constantly mentioned, which makes the implications of there being a pretty big difference between pre androids saga SSJs and androids saga SSJs a bit iffy.

Also, why'd Vegeta refer to them surpassing THE SSJ if he saw how Piccolo did it?

Please, clarify there things to me.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It's just that SSjin was threated to be their limits and they can't improve that by training on their base form and sure it does make some gainz but it won't be a huge level. They need to ascend the SSjin in order to get stronger YUGE.

 

[Kyo]

Super Saiyan was a form of legend, meant to be the strongest in the universe. They've met people who can beat Super Saiyans. How unbelievable!

That's all there is to it.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

In other words, SSjin Goku from Namek shouldn't be that much different from the other SSjin tiers on Android arc, but sadly the PL purist can't digest it.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I did once a list based on the policy that transformations are fixed numbers.

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6909

 

[ahill1]

Kyo - But why didn't Vegeta say about surpassing the Super Saiyans when he saw Piccolo's power? Besides, don't you feel the SSJ it's kind of treated as its own thing, like how they put emphasis on being a SSJ, the SSJ being the strongest in the Universe... when there's a pretty big discrepancy between the own SSJs before the RoSaT?

 

[Papasmurf]

Tenshinhan (23rd) > Piccolo Daimao yet they treat Jr >>> Daimao as a big deal. No reason to think too deep

 

[ahill1]

They say how far he's above Daimao iirc.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I'm not against an approach where SSJ is a fixed level. The only real inconsistency is
Alternate Gohan stating he became a lot stronger, but that could be just false bravado.
Besides, Lone Warrior chapter is so shittily written that i tend to ignore it totally.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There was such a huge emphasis on Super Saiyan because it was the most powerful source of power (among them) at that point. That's why Krillin mentioned Piccolo in the same sentence as a Super Saiyan when describing his power-up. Or why Tien regards Super Saiyan to be in a different dimension. Or why Trunks disregarded Piccolo's statement about Vegeta seeming stronger than Goku because he can "become a Super Saiyan, too". Or why Krillin is so shocked that a Super Saiyan could be dropped in a single attack. Or why Piccolo specifically cites that Krillin would've made no difference because a a Super Saiyan was easily knocked down. It seems as if simply being a Super Saiyan alone was a big deal when going by the Android saga.

Vegeta can be stronger than Goku and Goku can be stronger than Trunks and it'd still make sense. Vegeta realized that he was no match for the Androids as a Super Saiyan, and began to wonder if he was at his limits. Once he sensed Piccolo and Cell's huge Chi, Vegeta knew that the Super Saiyans were pretty ass compared to all of the newer powers. Being below the Androids was one thing, but being behind Piccolo was another.

 

[ahill1]

There was such a huge emphasis on Super Saiyan because it was the most powerful source of power (among them) at that point. That's why Krillin mentioned Piccolo in the same sentence as a Super Saiyan when describing his power-up. Or why Tien regards Super Saiyan to be in a different dimension. Or why Trunks disregarded Piccolo's statement about Vegeta seeming stronger than Goku because he can "become a Super Saiyan, too". Or why Krillin is so shocked that a Super Saiyan could be dropped in a single attack. Or why Piccolo specifically cites that Krillin would've made no difference because a a Super Saiyan was easily knocked down. It seems as if simply being a Super Saiyan alone was a big deal when going by the Android saga.

Vegeta can be stronger than Goku and Goku can be stronger than Trunks and it'd still make sense. Vegeta realized that he was no match for the Androids as a Super Saiyan, and began to wonder if he was at his limits. Once he sensed Piccolo and Cell's huge Chi, Vegeta knew that the Super Saiyans were pretty ass compared to all of the newer powers. Being below the Androids was one thing, but being behind Piccolo was another.

But don't you think all those statements are a bit strange if there was a big difference between the SSJs? It's mostly seen as a set amount of power.

But why Vegeta didn't notice Piccolo also surpassing the SSJs when he fought Gero? He said the SSJ was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe, doesn't that sound strange when he made no mention of Piccolo surpassing some SSJs (e.g Goku and Trunks from three years ago)?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, it is strange. Thing is, Vegeta's other statements gives me the impression that he considered his Super Saiyan to be in a class of its own.

Vegeta: “There’s no need for us to wait for Kakarot! Maybe you can’t tell, but I’ve become a Super Saiyan. As long as we’re both Super Saiyans, I the prince will definitely be several levels stronger than a guy like him…!”

Vegeta: “I-I’m the prince ,the most elite of the Saiyans…Now that I’ve become a Super Saiyan, I should be #1 in the entire universe…Is it because my opponents are androids…Is this my limit?...”

The same Vegeta has no issue disregarding Trunks' power when it comes to challenging the Androids:

Vegeta: “Looks like that level [of attack] is just a waste of energy.”

Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

So based on the above, Vegeta thinks the Androids>Super Saiyan Trunks since he doesn't think he'd be of any use against them.

Then you have to ask yourself this question: is Vegeta more salty that the Androids/Piccolo/Cell have greater power than himself as a Super Saiyan rather than the "Super Saiyans" as a whole? I'd say so. Vegeta considered himself #1 above everyone, but he had no issue assuming the Androids were too strong for someone like Trunks, who was also a Super Saiyan. Maybe Goku as well.

With that, we know the "Super Saiyan" can't be referring to a certain wall of power. If it was, everything stops making sense.

As for Vegeta not saying anything about Piccolo, I'd assume he didn't care because Piccolo wasn't stronger than himself. I don't think Vegeta really cared about "Super Saiyan" amongst all the Saiyans. Only himself, since he thinks his title would automatically make his Super Saiyan more powerful than the others.

You could also go with the idea of Vegeta not caring because "Super Saiyan" was still the strongest in general.

Like, if Super Saiyan was originally a 20 max, but further improvement took it around 60-70, I don't think Vegeta would take note of someone jumping to 30 or 40 because the Super Saiyan would still be well above that newer power (Piccolo) that surpassed the old highest (Super Saiyan Goku/Trunks) level. I hope that makes sense.

 

[ahill1]

Hmm, good explanation. It makes sense.

But what about Piccolo saying "even Trunks as a SSJ was done in one blow"? Doesn't that sound strange if Piccolo was also wielding SSJ's powers? Or Trunks stating he doesn't have to worry with Cell because he is also a SSJ.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It was probably to put things into perspective about Krillin's refusal to intervene. Basically, this guy was a Super Saiyan and was easily defeated, so your help wouldn't have mattered. That sorta thing.

Cell still seemed to be a mystery at that point, so Trunks probably believed his Super Saiyan would've been enough to deal with him. All they were probably expecting was some creepy monster at that point. That seemed to change once they felt Cell power-up for the first time and knew they weren't dealing with a normal enemy.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

They're all slightly stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

They're all slightly stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek.

And weaker than 50% Freeza. :rape

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

They're all slightly stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek.

And weaker than 50% Freeza. :rape

Nah, slightly stronger than Namek Saga SSJ Goku.

 

[Victorious]

It doesnt make much sense for them to train 3 years and only get a 10% power up...a 50-75% power increase [ie 1.5-1.75x boost] is much more likely for Goku and Future Trunks. Piccolo meanwhile being in between the pre 3 years training and post 3 years training SSJs.