Tosh said:
HUEBR_Tapion said:
Tosh said:
Incorrect.
Try and say something logical and not full of fucking idiocy next time. I swear, you're likely the biggest head on this forum.
I already did. You just ignored my posts like they didn't exist so you wouldn't have to debunk them, and then post something admitting that you can't.
Simple as that, you're in denial about Gotenks and Super Buu.
Prove me that ->
Super Buu is barely above Goku.
Gotenks is barely above Goku.
Kid Buu is the strongest apart from Buuhan and Buutenks.
These are you're personal beliefs, aren't?
Let's have a debate right there, without you escaping from it like you did before.
Here are all you're arguments compiled into one list:
Pyrus's Dragonball Z Retorts:
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8361524/1/
Here are all my counters to that very specific list which incorporates all of your ideologies:
Gotenks Pre
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
Gotenks Post
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3731
Super Boo
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3777
Now before you say something, make sure that it isn't on any of those topics. Otherwise it will have already been covered.
Glad you're at least trying. Now, let's get started with this.
I'll ignore your fist Gotenks pre counter argument because you're right on your first take.
mention="Tosh""][/mention]]b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.[/mention]
When a character makes a statement, it is considered true until proven otherwise. Goku's statement was never, particulally, proven wrong. And i challenge you to prove that i'm wrong, as always. If Goku says something like "He will be stronger, definitively" it's the author intent to go along with. Even though Toriyama seems to have changed his mind in Super, that's another thing and is a complete retcon that doesn't fit in a manga-debating argument.
So, Goku don't being fully capable of gauge their strength accurately is not a issue to the statement when it was never proven wrong.
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Actually, that doesn't contradict much. Goku was sure that Gotenks could defeat the Fat Buu that he fought with. What Goku probably thought here is a little bit of fear that what Fat Buu was not all out against him(so perhaps Gotenks wouldn't be able to defeat Fat Buu) but Goku was completely sure that Gotenks would be able to defeat the version of Fat Buu thathe fought with. Backed up by Goku's firm stand in the matter of "Gotenks will be able of defeating the fatso":
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll
definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion
is just
that extreme.”
Goku was very firm on his statement.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Yes, he was(proved above) and i find funny that when something supposedly helps your argument, you use it and says "statements = true until contradicted" but when it doesn't help your argument at all, you says that the character that made the statement was not right, he couldn't be right, etc..
Nitpicking, that is.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
I actually agree with you.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
If he never told Buu that, why you did say "the entire point of telling Buu that"? You're again being contradictory and suspicious.
And it has to be taken as an actual fact. He didn't say it to Buu, but he did say it to Piccolo, which only destroys your counter, because your argument is solely based in "Goku told Buu that so Buu wouldn't kill everyone and destroy the Earth". The fact that Goku actually never told him that originally, but told it to Piccolo as an actual statement to be trusted, just destroys your argument and don't back it up at all. You're just trying to say "characters are wrong, i'm right, and i say that it shouldn't be taken as an actual fact" at best.
Destroyed.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
Goku: "Sorry, but we don't know when Babidi will find us. We've gotta start now."
Piccolo: "Will you use the Room of Spirit and Time?"
Goku: "No. They can only use it for two days in their whole lives, right? They might need it later. I'm sure they're gonna learn this quick."
Goku says they have to start learning to fuse right away because nobody knows when Majin Boo might find them. Piccolo offers to use the RoSaT to speed up the process, but Goku refrains from using that and says they might need it after.
Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
He was, the little problem here is that you're adding your own interpretation to the statement like it was fact. If you're gonna add your interpretation, at least have something to back it up. What Goku said was "Well, they might need it later", nothing more than that. Nothing that even backs up your bias right there.
A
rgument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Base Gotenks post > SSj Pre was never disproven by this twisted logic. What you're saying is that fusion doesn't scale linearly because if it did, it would create a little "paradox" and "hole", or even numeric impossibilites and so. So, little sir, let me tell you something that is factual: Everything is solely based on plot, and only that. Toriyama doesn't care with any real life logic and multipliers at all. Let's create a little analogy based in the logic of the manga: if Beerus was a manga villain, and Goku's initial objective was to gauge Beerus's power, even though he NEVER saw Beerus or sensed even a little portion of his ki, the plot would make Goku gauge Beerus's ki accurately, so the plot would work. Is it hard to understand? It's like that: P-L-O-T.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
He had minutes, before that, to vocalize his doubts. The fact here is that even Piccolo agreed that Gotenks's ki was really, really incredible and never expressed any doubt at all before that, and everyone: Krillin, Piccolo, Goku and even Kame-sennin himself agreed that Gotenks was a success .
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
*Sigh* again, there aren't any thing as mathematical impossibilities in the manga. Everything is solely based on plot and Toriyama's basic math. Read the manga and you'll see that Toriyama don't go with math, go with what he really wants. You're only using real life logic and your made up bias to create arguments.
Also, if you go only with the manga and ignore Super's annoying retcons, the chain is as it follows
Base Saiyans>>>>Kaioshin>>>>Piccolo>>>>>>>Freeza.
Kibito's power is never commented, and nobody said that he was even close to Freeza. Imagine a power that is much stronger than Freeza merging with one that was never commented(suggesting that he is weak. If they had time to comment about how Kaioshin was able to one shot Freeza, they also had time to comment in Kibito's power.
So Kibito and Kaioshin merging and don't surpassing SSj2 Vegeta is perfectly explainable and makes sense. In fact, he being that close to SSj2 Vegeta? THIS is a miracle and just BACK UP Gotenks's power! Thank you Tosh, you actually helped me! You're just
So yes, i debunked your arguments for Gotenks Pre. Now, Gotenks Post is the target.
Code:
Argument: Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT surpassed his previous SSj level
Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.
Since i've already debunked that, i'll pass. And what is up with the next paragraph? You have to rephrase that. Oh, doesn't care. Let's go.
Code:
Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.
Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.
Your whole point is destroyed by you thinking that debunked "Base Post > SSj Pre", when you didn't. You threw a load of bull, said nothing to nothing. Well.
Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.
Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).
What's up with that? Seriously, read what Piccolo said before doing these threads.
He said that not EVEN Gotenks could defeat him. not EVEN..What this means is that Gotenks'd be the strongest, even if Goku was alive. The statement is a literal debunking to "Goku > Gotenks' anyways.
Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo
Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.
I can accept that.
The rest of your things are about SSj2 Gotenks and SSj3. What i have to say first:
1. Gotenks powering up from SSj to SSj3. It doesn't mean that he didn't had his SSj2 BRIEFLY, then immediately begun to transform in SSj3. When Goku is transforming, the SSj2 Sparks disappear as soon as he begins the SSj3 transformation.
2. Your analogy. The manga do not suggest anything about SSj multipliers - That is only from supplementary material and there are times where it doesn't fit. Long story short, They(multipliers) are based purely and solely in the plot. The plot can have SSj3 as 5,000,000,000x SSj if it wants.
Now, debunk everything above.
I'm waiting.
or Goktenks finger flicks him and he explodes into one million tiny shards. If Gotenks so much as sneezed on Goku, he would probably be killed. It would be similar to how Beerus was sleeping and Goku was almost killed.
