Random post - Power scaling? Inconsistencies?

[supercat]

Although I'm pretty big on discussions pertaining to hypothetical versus and power scaling in general, I'm not one to call something out as bad writing over something as trivial as mild inconsistencies in power, feats, or anything else that may defy what was previously established at one point.

What annoys me is how some fans will resort to farfetched excuses to justify why a particular character isn't as strong as they may appear just because they themselves don't want that character to be at a certain level. A common excuse I often encounter is the whole "so-and-so can't be at such-and-such level because that makes no sense at all" or the whole "if so-and-so is really that strong, how come they weren't there to stop such-and-such?"

I get that a clean, somewhat consistent power scale has some correlation with good storytelling; but these are discussions pertaining to a cartoon where beings with super abilities travel around the universe and challenge planet-busting warriors with magical (ki-based) attacks. Where part about that makes sense in the first place?

Regardless, I feel I'm more often than not I'm able to find an in-universe explanation for many of the excuses listed above anyway; so it really doesn't take away from show's quality as some like to put it.

What's also hilarious is how so many fans seem to have no problem downplaying a character by resorting to some retcon theory that was never once stated to be a thing, without realizing how open ended such a speculation is. Meaning, if some unstated retcon can weaken a character, why wouldn't that same flawed argument be applicable for a character getting stronger?

But all in all, I haven't really encountered this type of downplaying and/or senseless speculating here on this forum. This is the kind of stuff I usually encountered at other places. I'm actually kinda glad I haven't really had to go in circles about the same redundant nonsense pertaining to downplaying over and over again with the members here; makes discussions a whole lot more fun.

Off topic, but has anyone here ever chatted / debated with me on another DB forum?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What annoys me is how some fans will resort to farfetched excuses to justify why a particular character isn't as strong as they may appear just because they themselves don't want that character to be at a certain level. A common excuse I often encounter is the whole "so-and-so can't be at such-and-such level because that makes no sense at all" or the whole "if so-and-so is really that strong, how come they weren't there to stop such-and-such?"

I get that a clean, somewhat consistent power scale has some correlation with good storytelling; but these are discussions pertaining to a cartoon where beings with super abilities travel around the universe and challenge planet-busting warriors with magical (ki-based) attacks. Where part about that makes sense in the first place?

There's still such a thing as in-universe logic, which would be broken if one character became far stronger than another from the same training or one that seemed of lesser value, thereby making things feel very cheap. For instance, the humans gained far more power from half a year of Kami's training than Goku did from 3 years, despite all of them apart from Ten starting off at best on the level Goku was when he started and constantly being portrayed as nowhere near as talented as he. There's also Piccolo's implied gains from 6 days on Kaio's planet being far above what Goku gained from months on there with far more intense training. If the author doesn't bother to keep clearly comparable scenarios consistent, then it's clearly sloppy writing no matter how unrealistic the series may be.

I can agree that power scaling isn't as important as consistency in things such as character writing and the general plot, nor the power creep that comes from it or the contrived power up methods that lead to such, but power/training consistency is still something that needs to stay consistent in order to make a fictional series feel engaging and concise.

In regard to your points, are there any examples in particular for these or the retcon downplaying you had in mind when posting this?

 

[supercat]

I always went with the notion that the humans (particularly Tien) saw the caliber that Goku had obtained at the lookout as a benchmark and were really going above and beyond to surpass it; and that it may have been this determination and goal that helped push them. When factoring in the filler where the humans easily handled the Ginyu Force, their ability to progress quickly almost seems kind of plausible. It's only after the Frieza saga when it becomes more and more apparent that they lack the ability to grow; but that could also be tied in with a lack of motivation. I feel if they had trained with SSJ Goku and had taken advantage of the right opportunities (RoSaT), they too may have reached somewhat commendable levels.

Piccolo's increases, no matter how big, never really baffled me. Prior to the Buu saga, the guy's always been able to keep up with the top contenders. Simply training with SSJ Goku was enough to push him to what was implied to be SSJ-tier and one year of training in the RoSaT brought him to a tier that was possibly comparable to MSSJ Goku (50%). In fact, I was rather surprised his increases between Cell's defeat and Buu's debut were so minimal.

As for examples, I've seen some fans speculating that Base Goku's power had been retconned back to Buu saga levels without any clarification other than the fact that it makes no sense how these random fighters, namely Cabba, Frost, and Piccolo can keep up with a base form that had absorbed the ritual powers.

Another common excuse I see is: "so-and-so was holding back" or "due to a lack of training, they got weaker." I see the first one coming up during discussions pertaining to SSB Goku vs Android 17 while the latter excuse seems to pop up time to time during discussions related to Copy Base Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks. I find both excuses rather hilarious, as they can just as easily be applicable to their respective counter arguments. Without statements and/or feats it's really hard to determine whether or not a character had grown stronger or weaker; but some seem to think it makes more sense for someone to regress (even with an absence of feats or statements) than it is to power up beyond what they were previously capable of (even with feats). Feats seem to mean nothing if they defy logic. Personally, I could never adhere to this way of thinking; feats in general, but particularly those that are consistent with one another (Android 17 consistently showing SSB-tier feats), are really hard to challenge.

The funniest of all is how some fans seem to believe Android 17's barrier is what allows him to do so well. This is flat-out ridiculous, as saying #17 wouldn't do as well without his barrier is like saying Goku and Vegeta are only as powerful as they are because they could transform. Android 17's barrier is an extension of his power as transformations are an extension of Goku and Vegeta's.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I always went with the notion that the humans (particularly Tien) saw the caliber that Goku had obtained at the lookout as a benchmark and were really going above and beyond to surpass it; and that it may have been this determination and goal that helped push them. When factoring in the filler where the humans easily handled the Ginyu Force, their ability to progress quickly almost seems kind of plausible. It's only after the Frieza saga when it becomes more and more apparent that they lack the ability to grow; but that could also be tied in with a lack of motivation. I feel if they had trained with SSJ Goku and had taken advantage of the right opportunities (RoSaT), they too may have reached somewhat commendable levels.

The idea of them gaining so much more power from the same training through resolve seems very weak tbh. After all, Goku should've had just as great a resolve to push himself to new heights when considering he was told the new Piccolo would be far stronger than the previous one who it took everything for him to beat. The humans didn't have much of a benchmark for where the Saiyans ranked other than being far above Goku/Piccolo, so I don't see how their resolve would be any different from Goku's in the same scenario.

Piccolo's increases, no matter how big, never really baffled me. Prior to the Buu saga, the guy's always been able to keep up with the top contenders. Simply training with SSJ Goku was enough to push him to what was implied to be SSJ-tier and one year of training in the RoSaT brought him to a tier that was possibly comparable to MSSJ Goku (50%). In fact, I was rather surprised his increases between Cell's defeat and Buu's debut were so minimal.

I have no problem with Piccolo's ability to reach high/top tier in most situations. What I have a problem with is the time he achieved such compared to what Goku did in several dozen-fold the amount of time. Reaching SSJ tier is understandable when considering his training partner and the Rosat is just a contrived plot hax for everybody in itself. Kaio's training, on the other hand, is something we have a clear comparison between two fighters for, and is in no way balanced.

I agree with the rest of what you said though. It's pretty laughable how people try to nerf Post-God Base Goku/Vegeta when not only do they consistently present feats relevant to God Ki tier characters (Base Goku being able to hold off Hit, Base Goku fighting an excited Beerus, etc.), but they even try to bring in the retconned "Saiyan Beyond God" form as an excuse, despite the fact that every time Goku can't deal with something in Base, he resorts to his SSJ forms and if that's not enough, his God forms, yet never this middle ground between the SSJ and God tier such fans tend to refer to.

 

[sei'taer]

Piccolo being on kaio's for six days is probably the best example of this I can think of. There's literally no way he could improve enough in six days to be confident fighting someone stronger than nappa, let alone vegeta. And it goes against piccolo's gains in the entirety of the series.

 

[supercat]

Yeah when it comes down to it, I definitely get that there isn't much supporting the increases the humans were able to obtain during the Saiyan saga. Though anime-wise, their training in the pendulum room does add some credibility to their growth. Overall, I don't think their potential is as pathetic as some seem to believe; if given the right resources and opportunities, I feel they could become much stronger. Roshi is a prime example of this. How strong do you have him by the way?

I've always felt that part of Piccolo's success with King Kai's training was simply a byproduct of starting the training at a caliber far greater than the one Goku was at when he had undergone the training in discussion. That and the fact that Piccolo had the opportunity to battle against Nappa, an opponent who in terms of power far exceeded anyone Goku had encountered prior to his training with King Kai. I know that last part there is speculation at this point; but I feel it sort of goes along with how Roshi told Krillin in RoF that watching some of Goku's top-tier battles firsthand had helped him gain a better battle sense (perhaps one of the reasons why Roshi also powered up as much as he did). A bit different in context, but I would find it hard to believe that Piccolo's battle against Nappa didn't at all affect his experience.

I honestly have no idea why some fans seem to want characters who aren't Goku and Vegeta to either stagnate, or get weaker; some seem to go as far as even downplaying the two in discussion for the sake of keeping the others at a lower tier when the exact opposite has been shown through numerous feats and even a few statements. I personally prefer collective increases, and certain characters, particularly those who have potential (Android 17, Frieza, Piccolo, etc.), staying comparable to Goku and Vegeta, as this to me is a whole lot more appealing than the two of them just hogging the spotlight and towering over everyone. Lastly, I feel surpassing benchmarks that were once deemed insurmountable is what adds even more appeal; this is after all a show about getting stronger and surpassing limits. Anime-wise, how strong do you have Android 17 by the way?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Though anime-wise, their training in the pendulum room does add some credibility to their growth.

Whilst that's an interesting thought, I wouldn't put much stock in it, as it would be a double standard not to include Goku's time travel training as a similar training regime, with the gap between his opponents tending to be just as apparent (eg. essentially getting oneshotted by Mutaito in filler).

How strong do you have him by the way?

Slightly above 22nd TB Goku/Ten. Roshi specifying that "even young" he stood no chance against Daimao as a benchmark of how next level this threat was wouldn't hold much meaning if it were still below the previous top tiers.

I know that last part there is speculation at this point; but I feel it sort of goes along with how Roshi told Krillin in RoF that watching some of Goku's top-tier battles firsthand had helped him gain a better battle sense (perhaps one of the reasons why Roshi also powered up as much as he did). A bit different in context, but I would find it hard to believe that Piccolo's battle against Nappa didn't at all affect his experience.

That's actually a very interesting point to make. However, there is a clear difference between the internal logic of the original manga and Super, considering rage boosts were previously only exclusive to hybrids, yet now can be spammed by Vegeta, not to mention numerous retcons the series makes in regard to the end of the manga. Even taking it into account, I feel that it falls short when if using it as a means to bring a character to a completely new tier than they've ever experienced, seeing as how Piccolo never surpassed the level Beerus used against Goku despite bringing Beerus up (though I admit this theory is a good way of applying some semblance of logic to Piccolo being superior to the Post-God Base Saiyans by the time of the U6 tournament).

Lastly, I feel surpassing benchmarks that were once deemed insurmountable is what adds even more appeal; this is after all a show about getting stronger and surpassing limits.

Not only that, but surpassing the previous peak of power in short time has been a running trend of the series from the 22nd TB to the Cell Arc (and a slower rate for the Boo Arc), with any character worth mentioning and their mother surpassing the previous peak of power in little to know time. Everyone in the top 8 of the 22nd TB was stronger than post-Karin Goku (other than Pamputto), most of the 23rd TB contestants weren't leagues below Daimao, pretty much every active fighter but Chaozu and Yajirobe surpassed Raditz in the Saiyan Arc, etc.
Whilst I still see every jabroni in Super being strong enough to solo Z as sloppy writing, for many fans to vehemently avoid the evidence for such is simply ignorance of evidence when all that's changed narrative-wise is the yield of training gains being staggeringly different, something that means nothing not only due to Toriyama never truly caring about battle powers and abandoning them long ago, but in terms of plot importance it means even less than Goku only gaining several hundred battle power points from the entirety of his journey in Part 1.
Tl;dr, power levels are bullshit.

Anime-wise, how strong do you have Android 17 by the way?

Anime-wise, it's pretty unquantifiable, since one episode will have him appear Base Saiyan tier, the next will have him be SSB tier and another will have him be semi-relevant to UI tier. As strong as the plot demands is the only real answer.

 

[supercat]

I was actually referring to Roshi (ToP). I should have clarified that a bit better.

Well Vegeta's newfound love for his family and the deep emotional desire to protect them are likely what granted him the ability to benefit from rage boosts. Some more speculating here, but Vegeta's pride and overall obsessive tendencies may have have taken him to a point where any potential harm that may come upon his family drives him over the edge. Goku, while loving towards his family, may not react as dramatically, as he presumably doesn't share the same prideful characteristics as Vegeta; this could in theory explain why he never really had the opportunity to power up through rage alone in the past. Though, one could argue that going Super Saiyan for the first time and using Kaioken x20 on Frieza were both variations of rage boosts.

Well Beerus was one of the names Roshi mentioned when he was giving Krillin that pep talk; so nothing really indicates that the spectator has to reach the strongest level they've seen. I just see it as another tool that helps a character reach new heights moreso than some magical platform that flat-out powers them up to the strongest tier they've observed.

I see the changes pertaining to EoZ as a whole new topic, so I try not to let that influence or determine my opinion on power.

Android 17 doesn't have any transformations so it's quite expected for his power to fluctuate. Goku adjusts his power accordingly through transformations and at times by suppressing his base form. Since #17 doesn't share the luxury of transformations, he has no way of visually showing the degree of power he puts forth. I see this as the ideal explanation for characters who have power levels that often conform to plot requirements. That said, I do feel Android 17 at full power is comparable to current SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta at the lowest. If we factor in some of his recent feats, it's quite possible that he climbed up to a caliber somewhat comparable to one of SSB Goku's lower-mid levels of Kaioken.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I was actually referring to Roshi (ToP). I should have clarified that a bit better.

Anime-wise, about 60-65% of Current Base Goku's power when using his buff form Manly GAINZ! Manga-wise, closer to around 85% of Base Goku seeing as how he can somewhat avoid being wrecked by Frost.

Android 17 doesn't have any transformations so it's quite expected for his power to fluctuate. Goku adjusts his power accordingly through transformations and at times by suppressing his base form. Since #17 doesn't share the luxury of transformations, he has no way of visually showing the degree of power he puts forth. I see this as the ideal explanation for characters who have power levels that often conform to plot requirements. That said, I do feel Android 17 at full power is comparable to current SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta at the lowest. If we factor in some of his recent feats, it's quite possible that he climbed up to a caliber somewhat comparable to one of SSB Goku's lower-mid levels of Kaioken.

The thing is, #17's power becomes widely inconsistent from the fight with Toppo and onwards. At first, he gets wrecked by Base Toppo, then he can last long against Hakaishin Toppo, and puts on a far greater display against FP Jiren. Adjusting his power can't really be much of an option when Base Toppo was enough to break his arm.

 

[supercat]

So how strong do you have current Roshi in comparison to SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan?

Well I feel Android 17's brief scuffle with SSB Goku along with his amazing performance against Aniraza are two major feats that are consistent enough to put him on par with current SSB Goku on the low end. I also don't feel he performed all that poorly against Base Toppo. Sure he was on the losing end, but in no shape or form was it a stomp. There was perhaps a 2x gap between the two at most in my opinion. This would make sense, since Toppo was confident he could surpass some unspecified level of SSB Goku Kaioken. So at a bare minimum, full power Toppo should be comparable to SSB Goku Kaioken x3, if not notably stronger.

Plus, if the gap between Base Toppo and Android 17 was really that significant, their beam clash wouldn't have ended the way it did. Toppo would have easily held off Android 17's blast with one hand while utilizing his other hand to defend himself against Frieza; or he would have simply moved out of the way, allowing Android 17's blast to engulf Frieza (kind of like what Goku did with Majin Vegeta's blast at the tournament). Even with Frieza viciously attacking him from behind, he remained planted firmly on the ground, seemingly putting forth all he could to hold off Android 17's blast. This is further supported when Frieza ridicules Toppo for his inability to fight back. Also, seeing that one casual blast from Frieza was enough for #17 to push back and gain some leverage, it seems very plausible that the advantage Toppo had wasn't much to begin with. To me, these are all strong indications that Base Toppo at full power isn't much stronger than #17. As for the arm thing, pretty sure that was part of #17's plan.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So how strong do you have current Roshi in comparison to SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan?

Both of them would be oneshot material to him. Base Goku shouldn't be a complete ant to God Ki tier given that his SSJ form seems to be not far off from 10% of SSB Vegeta's power, which should still be part of the realm of power Goku didn't believe existed prior to gaining SSG. In other words, Post-God Base Goku > SS3 Vegetto (BoG), who would in turn be far superior to his Boo Arc counterpart.

Well I feel Android 17's brief scuffle with SSB Goku along with his amazing performance against Aniraza are two major feats that are consistent enough to put him on par with current SSB Goku on the low end.

If anything, I'd say the Anilasa feat goes against #17 being so high. His MVP role in that fight was purely due to the other fighters cushioning Anilasa's blast, evidenced by #17's shield having previously been broken through with ease by a simple Ki blast from the monster and swatted away further than SSG Goku was.

 

[supercat]

Yeah, as farfetched as it sounds, I don't see how Roshi could possibly lose to any Buu saga character at this point. I mean, he gave a seemingly suppressed Base Goku a decent fight while even managing to earn himself a compliment. With how far Goku's come, I doubt someone of Buuhan's level would elicit such a remark. That said, there's always the possibility that Goku was simply excited by the fact that Roshi had improved as much as he did, despite stagnating years ago.

Well Aniraza's attack was pushing all five back, despite the team putting in what appeared to be their utmost effort; so it's definitely a powerful attack that I feel surpasses the general SSB-tier. Android 17 not only physically pushed a blast of that caliber back but was able to blitz right through it; I can't imagine how a feat of that extent wouldn't earn him a spot among other SSB-tier contenders.

Well Goku would have been rung out had Frieza not saved him. Plus, 17 wasn't really swatted away; the ground below him shattered, rendering him helpless. One could also argue that all it took for Goku to go flying out of the ring was a casual punch while 17 momentarily endured a barrage of smaller blasts and one big one that appeared to have some power behind it. Seeing that Goku and them were quite adamant about dodging anything Aniraza threw their way, a direct hit from even one blast is likely powerful enough to ring out anything notably short of SSB-tier.