REVERSE THIS & SWITCH THAT!

[VampireWicked]

The Buu Arc.

Suddenly there's a switch, Babidi's magic swaps their biology while hypnotizing Tien & Yamcha to his side.
Vegeta becomes human, Goku becomes an Android, Yamcha & Tien becomes Saiyans.


It's Human Vegeta & Android Goku
VS Saiyan Tien & Yamcha.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

In the best case, Yamcha/Tien can transform into SSJs and be in the pre Androids arc SSJs range, so Android Goku solos.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't see how this would drastically affect the characters' power. Maybe Vegeta would be slightly weakened due to the change in his body, but definitely not to the extent he'd become dozens of times weaker. Becoming Saiyans would drastically increase Yamcha and Ten's potential, but it wouldn't result in them instantly becoming far stronger unless operating by Super's poor logic (or lack thereof), especially when the Base Saiyans were already above #18 at that point. Becoming an Artificial Human would likely just enhance Goku's power rather than weaken him, unless making him a fully robotic type like Gero, which would still vastly overpower Yamcha/Ten unless they immediately unlock SSJ.

That said, either of the two former Saiyans gets the job done here.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Maybe Vegeta would be slightly weakened due to the change in his body, but definitely not to the extent he'd become dozens of times weaker.

I think that Saiyans' haxed base power post Androids Arc is beyond humans' potential.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think that Saiyans' haxed base power post Androids Arc is beyond humans' potential.

Super disagrees

Even ignoring Super for obvious reasons, there's nothing definitive to suggest that such levels are beyond a human's capabilities, with the power Tenshinhan can harness with the Shin Kikoho, regardless of it being amplifying technique, seeming to directly contradict that line of thought.

 

[VampireWicked]

I don't see how this would drastically affect the characters' power. Maybe Vegeta would be slightly weakened due to the change in his body, but definitely not to the extent he'd become dozens of times weaker. Becoming Saiyans would drastically increase Yamcha and Ten's potential, but it wouldn't result in them instantly becoming far stronger unless operating by Super's poor logic (or lack thereof), especially when the Base Saiyans were already above #18 at that point. Becoming an Artificial Human would likely just enhance Goku's power rather than weaken him, unless making him a fully robotic type like Gero, which would still vastly overpower Yamcha/Ten unless they immediately unlock SSJ.

That said, either of the two former Saiyans gets the job done here.

When where Base Saiyans above Android18 ?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

When where Base Saiyans above Android18 ?

Trunks managed to fight on her level at the 25th TB, something backed up by the Daizenshuu, and he's significantly weaker than the likes of Vegeta and Goku.

 

[VampireWicked]

When where Base Saiyans above Android18 ?

Trunks managed to fight on her level at the 25th TB, something backed up by the Daizenshuu, and he's significantly weaker than the likes of Vegeta and Goku.

You mean KidTrunks?

No.
Did the Daizenshuu ever say Android18 was going full out?
What makes you think that in a crowded arena with innocent people & her daughter she'd put them at risk?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You mean KidTrunks?

Nah, I'm obviously referring to his GT self when I'm talking about the one who fought #18 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

No.
Did the Daizenshuu ever say Android18 was going full out?
What makes you think that in a crowded arena with innocent people & her daughter she'd put them at risk?

Ah, the old "#18 was suppressed" angle.

Firstly, the question can go the same for Trunks when considering he wasn't only in a restrictive costume, but had plenty of people to care about not getting caught up in the action. Trunks even makes it apparent how debilitating the costume was for his movements.
Secondly, the Daizenshuu further backs up the Base Saiyans' standing by confirming Shin is scared of Yakon, something made apparent in the manga when he immediately recommended the group gang up on him, despite Base Goku being around Yakon's level.
Thirdly, the whole route of #18 holding back because of things such as not wanting to get the spectators involved or not going all out against what she thought was a regular human is operating under the basis she can't control her strength properly, which as we saw in her fight with Vegeta, is completely wrong. She can use her full power without knocking her opponent kilometres away or destroying the whole area, so the reasons for her not using more power when it became apparent that Mighty Mask wasn't an opponent she could just oneshot is very weak. Simply put, if #18 were capable of beating Trunks by powering up, she would have.

 

[Keedounan]

You mean KidTrunks?

Nah, I'm obviously referring to his GT self when I'm talking about the one who fought #18 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

No.
Did the Daizenshuu ever say Android18 was going full out?
What makes you think that in a crowded arena with innocent people & her daughter she'd put them at risk?

Ah, the old "#18 was suppressed" angle.

Firstly, the question can go the same for Trunks when considering he wasn't only in a restrictive costume, but had plenty of people to care about not getting caught up in the action. Trunks even makes it apparent how debilitating the costume was for his movements.
Secondly, the Daizenshuu further backs up the Base Saiyans' standing by confirming Shin is scared of Yakon, something made apparent in the manga when he immediately recommended the group gang up on him, despite Base Goku being around Yakon's level.
Thirdly, the whole route of #18 holding back because of things such as not wanting to get the spectators involved or not going all out against what she thought was a regular human is operating under the basis she can't control her strength properly, which as we saw in her fight with Vegeta, is completely wrong. She can use her full power without knocking her opponent kilometres away or destroying the whole area, so the reasons for her not using more power when it became apparent that Mighty Mask wasn't an opponent she could just oneshot is very weak. Simply put, if #18 were capable of beating Trunks by powering up, she would have.

That, and if she was holding back to the point of not being able to kill a human being, even a restricted Trunks wouldn't have much trouble overpowering her.

 

[VampireWicked]

You mean KidTrunks?

Nah, I'm obviously referring to his GT self when I'm talking about the one who fought #18 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

No.
Did the Daizenshuu ever say Android18 was going full out?
What makes you think that in a crowded arena with innocent people & her daughter she'd put them at risk?

Ah, the old "#18 was suppressed" angle.

Firstly, the question can go the same for Trunks when considering he wasn't only in a restrictive costume, but had plenty of people to care about not getting caught up in the action. Trunks even makes it apparent how debilitating the costume was for his movements.
Secondly, the Daizenshuu further backs up the Base Saiyans' standing by confirming Shin is scared of Yakon, something made apparent in the manga when he immediately recommended the group gang up on him, despite Base Goku being around Yakon's level.
Thirdly, the whole route of #18 holding back because of things such as not wanting to get the spectators involved or not going all out against what she thought was a regular human is operating under the basis she can't control her strength properly, which as we saw in her fight with Vegeta, is completely wrong. She can use her full power without knocking her opponent kilometres away or destroying the whole area, so the reasons for her not using more power when it became apparent that Mighty Mask wasn't an opponent she could just oneshot is very weak. Simply put, if #18 were capable of beating Trunks by powering up, she would have.

You're case is flimsy.
Under those circumstances there's nothing saying Android18 was going all out.
Find me an official source that says she was.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Under those circumstances there's nothing saying Android18 was going all out.

Despite there being absolutely nothing saying she was holding back, general analysis of her fighting style showing she can go all out without putting those around her in danger and her motivation in the battle making holding back contradictory.

You're case is flimsy.
Find me an official source that says she was.

So actual evidence is flimsy, whereas a standpoint of baseless assumptions isn't?

Very convincing...

 

[VampireWicked]

Under those circumstances there's nothing saying Android18 was going all out.

Despite there being absolutely nothing saying she was holding back, general analysis of her fighting style showing she can go all out without putting those around her in danger and her motivation in the battle making holding back contradictory.

You're case is flimsy.
Find me an official source that says she was.

So actual evidence is flimsy, whereas a standpoint of baseless assumptions isn't?

Very convincing...

No actual evidence isn't but assumptions are.
I'm asking for actual evidence that KidTrunks in Base is equal to or greater than Android18.
You're case that he is is based off the costume & KidTrunks/KidGoten teamwork, an audience filled with innocent bystanders, & a suppressed Android18.

So you are so sure then give official statements saying Base KidTrunks alone rivals Android18.
I'm not talking about quotes to you have to interpret or make asumptions by filling the blank.

A flatout official statement with others to back it up, otherwise Android18 was suppressed not to kill or seriously injury anyone.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

No actual evidence isn't but assumptions are.
I'm asking for actual evidence that KidTrunks in Base is equal to or greater than Android18.
You're case that he is is based off the costume & KidTrunks/KidGoten teamwork, an audience filled with innocent bystanders, & a suppressed Android18.

The necessity to hold back isn't strong when we saw from her fight with Vegeta #18 can use her full power without it affecting bystanders. That's the crux of the argument against her going all out, something that is refutable simply through comparative evaluation with her fight against Vegeta.

Trunks and Goten were barely able to accomplish any teamwork, with Trunks being the only one who could attack, and Trunks clearly mentions how debilitating the costume is:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

No need to point out being at a disadvantage in the costume if they'd be at a disadvantage against #18 in general.

So you are so sure then give official statements saying Base KidTrunks alone rivals Android18.

From Daizenshuu 7 about Trunks

Tenkaichi Budoukai: At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No.18’s, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament’s final results are unknown. (Daizenshuu 4, p.123, 124)

Then this one about Yakon

Yakon
Babidi’s underling
First Appearance: chapter 450
Special Characteristics: Called a demonic beast, he’s a monster which even Kaioshin is afraid of. He prefers pitch-black darkness, and so can see even in the dark. Though he tried to eat Goku and co., his most favorite meal is light.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

We're even given evidence against the idea that #18 can easily suppress her power on command:

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6
Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test
Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.”
No.18: “I know.” *she hits it*
Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”
Kuririn: “That’s why I told you not to overdo it!”
No.18: “Be quiet! It’s hard to hold back!”
Referee guy: “It-it seems to be fixed. Try again. *she hits again* …203 points…!?”

I'm not talking about quotes to you have to interpret or make asumptions by filling the blank.

Ironic that this is what you're doing to the Daizenshuu statement to refute it by saying it not stating she used her full power as proving she was suppressed, despite the latter never being implied in the slightest by it.

A flatout official statement with others to back it up, otherwise Android18 was suppressed not to kill or seriously injury anyone.

You do realise what burden of proof is? I've already provided the evidence to back up my claim, provided counters to yours and shown the links to bring me to my conclusion.

Meanwhile, you haven't brought out anything to counter or strengthen the points you've made and instead ask for solid evidence without providing your own. The burden of proof falls on you to either back up the points you've made or provide new ones. If you do, then great. If not, there's no real way to really discuss this more, as it'll just boil down to me showing evidence and you saying "No, not convinced".

 

[VampireWicked]

The necessity to hold back isn't strong when we saw from her fight with Vegeta #18 can use her full power without it affecting bystanders. That's the crux of the argument against her going all out, something that is refutable simply through comparative evaluation with her fight against Vegeta.

Trunks and Goten were barely able to accomplish any teamwork, with Trunks being the only one who could attack, and Trunks clearly mentions how debilitating the costume is:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

No need to point out being at a disadvantage in the costume if they'd be at a disadvantage against #18 in general.

You're comparing a serious fight to a non-lethal sparring match in a tournament that isn't to the death.

It says

demonstrating strength on par with No.18’s, until she managed to see through their disguise.

Meaning she was holding back.

Then this one about Yakon

Yakon
Babidi’s underling
First Appearance: chapter 450
Special Characteristics: Called a demonic beast, he’s a monster which even Kaioshin is afraid of. He prefers pitch-black darkness, and so can see even in the dark. Though he tried to eat Goku and co., his most favorite meal is light.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

You're submitting this as evidence when the Kaioshin who completely underestimated the PowerLevels of Vegeta, Gohan, & Goku.

C'mon.

We're even given evidence against the idea that #18 can easily suppress her power on command:

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6
Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test
Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.”
No.18: “I know.” *she hits it*
Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”
Kuririn: “That’s why I told you not to overdo it!”
No.18: “Be quiet! It’s hard to hold back!”
Referee guy: “It-it seems to be fixed. Try again. *she hits again* …203 points…!?”

It doesn't say she flat out can't, it says it's not easy.
Not being easy & flat out cannot aren't the same thing.

Ironic that this is what you're doing to the Daizenshuu statement to refute it by saying it not stating she used her full power as proving she was suppressed, despite the latter never being implied in the slightest by it.

You're doing that very thing.
You did exactly what I asked you not to do.
You provided quotes of the material & interrupted it base on your own assumptions.

You do realise what burden of proof is? I've already provided the evidence to back up my claim, provided counters to yours and shown the links to bring me to my conclusion.

Yes I do realize what burden o proof is & you haven't given it.

Meanwhile, you haven't brought out anything to counter or strengthen the points you've made and instead ask for solid evidence without providing your own. The burden of proof falls on you to either back up the points you've made or provide new ones. If you do, then great. If not, there's no real way to really discuss this more, as it'll just boil down to me showing evidence and you saying "No, not convinced".

I just previously did in the other thread.

Here.

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that?

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

KidTrunks would have to be born with an extremely high Base PowerLevel, & or gain enough from Namek Base Goku's 3Million to 120Million in his Base form just to rival Frieza.
Than have to gain enough to rival Android18.

A Base KidTrunks with a PowerLevel that high would be 6.000.000.000 as a SuperSaiyan.
If Goku & Vegeta's PowerLevel in Base never got high enough to rival Frieza, then how could any Fusion between them surpass a SuperSaiyan3 Gotenks.

So can you prove KidTrunks in Base has a PowerLevel more than 150Million from official source material ?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You're comparing a serious fight to a non-lethal sparring match in a tournament that isn't to the death.

It wasn't serious to #18, who was toying with Vegeta for the most part, and there's

Meaning she was holding back.

I don't see how you could draw that conclusion when it's obviously referring to how she used a Kienzan to disqualify that immediately afterwards.

You're submitting this as evidence when the Kaioshin who completely underestimated the PowerLevels of Vegeta, Gohan, & Goku.

He underestimated them, yet clearly knew Yakon by name, likely being personally acquainted with his power, at least more so than the Saiyans. Also, unlike with his perception of the Saiyans, no evidence points to the contrary.

It doesn't say she flat out can't, it says it's not easy.
Not being easy & flat out cannot aren't the same thing.

I never said she couldn't, only that she can't do so on command, to the extent someone like Goku can at least. Her not being able to easily do so is a firm counter to the idea she easily did so against the kids.

You're doing that very thing.
You did exactly what I asked you not to do.
You provided quotes of the material & interrupted it base on your own assumptions.

And that's how debates work. You provide the evidence and draw your conclusions from it. Prior to the point I'll respond to below, you didn't do that. Moreover, your interpretation of the Daizenshuu statement is far more unfounded when looking at the context, so who really is the one basing things on their own assumptions rather than taking what's said at face value?

Yes I do realize what burden o proof is & you haven't given it.

Then I ask you the same - provide me with an objective, official statement that #18 was suppressed, otherwise she was at full power. That excuse can work both ways, the difference being that those who present the stronger evidence hold a clear advantage.

KidTrunks would have to be born with an extremely high Base PowerLevel, & or gain enough from Namek Base Goku's 3Million to 120Million in his Base form just to rival Frieza.
Than have to gain enough to rival Android18.

A Base KidTrunks with a PowerLevel that high would be 6.000.000.000 as a SuperSaiyan.
If Goku & Vegeta's PowerLevel in Base never got high enough to rival Frieza, then how could any Fusion between them surpass a SuperSaiyan3 Gotenks.

So can you prove KidTrunks in Base has a PowerLevel more than 150Million from official source material ?
[/quote]Nothing can be proven either way in regard to battle powers when they're completely removed from the story at the start of the Cell Arc, so debating them either way after that is completely pointless as there is nothing to base the accuracy of numbers on. I could ask you to prove Trunks is below 150 million based on an official source and there'd be an equal amount of evidence for the opposite (ie. none at all).

Instead, I'll focus on the actual evidence here, being the quote:

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

The quote only covers Zenkais as not being an option, yet never mentions training gains becoming irrelevant, which isn't so when it's clear that someone like Boo Arc Goku is leagues ahead of Freeza Arc Goku. Alongside that, it only refers to transformations and fusion making it so that their battle powers were incalculable, which is far from the same as saying a calculable level such as 150 million was a level the Base Saiyans couldn't reach.

 

[VampireWicked]

It wasn't serious to #18, who was toying with Vegeta for the most part, and there's

Again you're comparing a serious fight to a non-lethal sparring match in a Tournament where killing the opponent wasn't an option.

I don't see how you could draw that conclusion when it's obviously referring to how she used a Kienzan to disqualify that immediately afterwards.

That was used to rip open the costume, not an attempt to kill either KidTrunks or KidGoten.

He underestimated them, yet clearly knew Yakon by name, likely being personally acquainted with his power, at least more so than the Saiyans. Also, unlike with his perception of the Saiyans, no evidence points to the contrary.

He knew nothing of how powerful Saiyans were, he was always amazed by their displays of strength & fighting capabilities.
His reactions points this out.

I never said she couldn't, only that she can't do so on command, to the extent someone like Goku can at least. Her not being able to easily do so is a firm counter to the idea she easily did so against the kids.

Unless it removes the possibility altogether which it does not, then she was suppressed.

And that's how debates work. You provide the evidence and draw your conclusions from it. Prior to the point I'll respond to below, you didn't do that. Moreover, your interpretation of the Daizenshuu statement is far more unfounded when looking at the context, so who really is the one basing things on their own assumptions rather than taking what's said at face value?

You are.
Unless you can find actual Daizenshuu statements saying KidTrunks has a Base PowerLevel rivaling that of Namek SuperSaiyan Goku?
Then You have nothing but an assumption.

Then I ask you the same - provide me with an objective, official statement that #18 was suppressed, otherwise she was at full power. That excuse can work both ways, the difference being that those who present the stronger evidence hold a clear advantage.

lol Don't play your stalling tactics, I've already given an official statement by Beerus saying Frieza > Base Saiyans.

And the PowerLevels of Frieza & Base Goku/Supersaiyan.
So it's all on you.

Nothing can be proven either way in regard to battle powers when they're completely removed from the story at the start of the Cell Arc, so debating them either way after that is completely pointless as there is nothing to base the accuracy of numbers on. I could ask you to prove Trunks is below 150 million based on an official source and there'd be an equal amount of evidence for the opposite (ie. none at all).

Wrong.
The PowerLevels for the battle between Goku & Frieza on Namek.

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

DragonBall SUPER Beerus confirms Base Goku at that point is still no match for Frieza.

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

And there is nothing indicating KidTrunks in Base was.

The quote only covers Zenkais as not being an option, yet never mentions training gains becoming irrelevant, which isn't so when it's clear that someone like Boo Arc Goku is leagues ahead of Freeza Arc Goku. Alongside that, it only refers to transformations and fusion making it so that their battle powers were incalculable, which is far from the same as saying a calculable level such as 150 million was a level the Base Saiyans couldn't reach.

I never said Base Saiyans couldn't reach that.
I'm saying according to the official information given they never did between Frieza/Goku battle on Namek & Beerus 1st introduction in DragonBall SUPER.


Now again unless you have any Daizenshuu statements stating otherwise?
Then Base KdTrunks could not defeat Android18.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Again you're comparing a serious fight to a non-lethal sparring match in a Tournament where killing the opponent wasn't an option.

To call her fight against Vegeta with the way she acted in any way "serious" prior to her clothes getting ruined is a very big exagerration.
I don't know where you're getting the interpretation that being in a tournament automatically means she'd be holding back, especially when Vegeta seemed to have no intention on doing so.
On the subject of Vegeta's confidence, he also didn't waver on his confidence in his chances after the No SSJ rule was suggested, despite #18 being on the plane.

That was used to rip open the costume, not an attempt to kill either KidTrunks or KidGoten.

And why bother to go through that when by your belief, she should be more than capable of oneshotting them by so much as raising her power?

He knew nothing of how powerful Saiyans were, he was always amazed by their displays of strength & fighting capabilities.
His reactions points this out.

Which means little when we're talking about Yakon, not the Saiyans.

Unless it removes the possibility altogether which it does not, then she was suppressed.

You are.
Unless you can find actual Daizenshuu statements saying KidTrunks has a Base PowerLevel rivaling that of Namek SuperSaiyan Goku?
Then You have nothing but an assumption.

You do realise that does exactly the same for your case of #18 definitely being suppressed when no official statement says so, don't you?

lol Don't play your stalling tactics, I've already given an official statement by Beerus saying Frieza > Base Saiyans.

Of which would be fine if not for several pieces of conflicting evidence on that train of thought, of which still opens up discussion for the contrary.
Not only that, but more so than this case of #18 using her full power or not, the case of arguing against Freeza > Base Goku is easy to argue against in context for several reasons, the most blatant of which are Beerus having already seen SSJ Goku beforehand and noticing a visible difference, as well as Goku usually being at a resting level for below his full power if not fighting.

And the PowerLevels of Frieza & Base Goku/Supersaiyan.

Of which arguing against either way hinges on only fanmade numbers and battle power lists.

Wrong.
The PowerLevels for the battle between Goku & Frieza on Namek.

Of which has no bearing either way when battle powers stopped being a thing after suppressed Trunks' level against Mecha Freeza.

DragonBall SUPER Beerus confirms Base Goku at that point is still no match for Frieza.

Already pointed out the reasoning against that.

Now again unless you have any Daizenshuu statements stating otherwise?
Then Base KdTrunks could not defeat Android18.

The cognitive dissonnance here is astounding.

I can say the exact same and ask you for an official statement saying #18 was suppressed against Trunks and that unless you provide such, I am right and you are wrong, of which doing so for the opposite is what you're doing. Evidence suggesting Freeza > Base Saiyans isn't exactly the same as what I'd hypothetically be asking for despite being serviceable, the same as me pointing out an official source stating Trunks fought evenly with #18 and, just as you are for that, I can easily scrutinise the validity of that statement in context. Not only that, but I'm also bringing forward several notable inferences from the original manga, of which I've yet to see you do beyond what boils down to assumptions.

Of course no such statemen directly saying something as overt as "Trunks fought #18 at her full power" exists. We have to discuss this based on what evidence we have, of which I'm willing to do, though it's pointless to continue if you keep asking for obvious impossibilities and not offer opposing evidence of equal value to it.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan also states the idea of becoming a SSJ wasn't a good one because their identity could be revealed without ever pointing out how it'd be risky to use it with all those bystanders, so I'm not really sure why #18 couldn't fight at full power and yet not threaten the spectators.

Not to mention Goku and Oob fighting 10 years later, in a level substantiated as being > Mr. Boo and yet inflicting no damage to whoever was there.

 

[VampireWicked]

Again you're comparing a serious fight to a non-lethal sparring match in a Tournament where killing the opponent wasn't an option.

To call her fight against Vegeta with the way she acted in any way "serious" prior to her clothes getting ruined is a very big exagerration.
I don't know where you're getting the interpretation that being in a tournament automatically means she'd be holding back, especially when Vegeta seemed to have no intention on doing so.
On the subject of Vegeta's confidence, he also didn't waver on his confidence in his chances after the No SSJ rule was suggested, despite #18 being on the plane.

That was used to rip open the costume, not an attempt to kill either KidTrunks or KidGoten.

And why bother to go through that when by your belief, she should be more than capable of oneshotting them by so much as raising her power?

He knew nothing of how powerful Saiyans were, he was always amazed by their displays of strength & fighting capabilities.
His reactions points this out.

Which means little when we're talking about Yakon, not the Saiyans.

Unless it removes the possibility altogether which it does not, then she was suppressed.

You are.
Unless you can find actual Daizenshuu statements saying KidTrunks has a Base PowerLevel rivaling that of Namek SuperSaiyan Goku?
Then You have nothing but an assumption.

You do realise that does exactly the same for your case of #18 definitely being suppressed when no official statement says so, don't you?

lol Don't play your stalling tactics, I've already given an official statement by Beerus saying Frieza > Base Saiyans.

Of which would be fine if not for several pieces of conflicting evidence on that train of thought, of which still opens up discussion for the contrary.
Not only that, but more so than this case of #18 using her full power or not, the case of arguing against Freeza > Base Goku is easy to argue against in context for several reasons, the most blatant of which are Beerus having already seen SSJ Goku beforehand and noticing a visible difference, as well as Goku usually being at a resting level for below his full power if not fighting.

And the PowerLevels of Frieza & Base Goku/Supersaiyan.

Of which arguing against either way hinges on only fanmade numbers and battle power lists.

Wrong.
The PowerLevels for the battle between Goku & Frieza on Namek.

Of which has no bearing either way when battle powers stopped being a thing after suppressed Trunks' level against Mecha Freeza.

DragonBall SUPER Beerus confirms Base Goku at that point is still no match for Frieza.

Already pointed out the reasoning against that.

Now again unless you have any Daizenshuu statements stating otherwise?
Then Base KdTrunks could not defeat Android18.

The cognitive dissonnance here is astounding.

I can say the exact same and ask you for an official statement saying #18 was suppressed against Trunks and that unless you provide such, I am right and you are wrong, of which doing so for the opposite is what you're doing. Evidence suggesting Freeza > Base Saiyans isn't exactly the same as what I'd hypothetically be asking for despite being serviceable, the same as me pointing out an official source stating Trunks fought evenly with #18 and, just as you are for that, I can easily scrutinise the validity of that statement in context. Not only that, but I'm also bringing forward several notable inferences from the original manga, of which I've yet to see you do beyond what boils down to assumptions.

Of course no such statemen directly saying something as overt as "Trunks fought #18 at her full power" exists. We have to discuss this based on what evidence we have, of which I'm willing to do, though it's pointless to continue if you keep asking for obvious impossibilities and not offer opposing evidence of equal value to it.

As I said there's more evidence towards her being suppressed & KidTrunks in Base not be her PowerLevel.
So if you don't have anything officially stating the in Base he is equal to a 100% Android18, then I'm not buying your reasoning.