Shonen Manga And Time Limit Power Ups

Papasmurf

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Why do you think it is that whenever a form has a specific time limit to how long it can be used, it tends to expire before it's supposed to, forcing the character to asspull a win in a lesser form afterwards? A bunch of shonen are guilty of this rather than just having the powered up state be used as the clincher, such as Yoko Kurama's reversion wearing off against Karasu, fusions in DB in general or Naruto's Sennin Mode expiring before he defeats Pain. I guess it's an easy way to write the protagonist into a corner and make the win feel more earned, but it's also a recipe for asspull wins.

Thoughts?
 

Captain Cadaver

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As you mentioned, the most likely case is bringing the protagonist into a corner through contrived means all for the sake of a plot twist, regardless of how much (or little) sense it makes due to the mangaka not wanting the result of a battle to be too predictable. Of course, trying to subvert expectations in such a way without the talent to pull it off is what leads to many of them being poorly done, something that's becoming more evident with how many modern series (both in and especially outside the anime/manga medium) are abusing the concept.
I'll say that DB's fusions did it okay in the series' original run, with Gotenks being limited by SS3 making sense with how draining the form was and Gotenks' arrogance being in-character and Vegetto needing to stall Boo, though the way in which GT and Super utilise the unexpected limits can be damaging with how uncharacteristically arrogant Gogeta was compared to his Fusion Reborn self or Gotenks messing about before arriving to fight Freeza despite knowing his own limits. The other examples you mentioned are pretty solid cases of asspull wins though, with Kurama having to have enough plot armoured durability to endure Karasu's attacks in his base form and the entire fight with Pain just being one huge mess in general. Gear 4th Luffy is also worth noting in a similar vein with how unnecessary its drawbacks ended up being with its cooldown time just serving to extend the battle with Doflamingo and being pretty much abandoned thereafter, because God forbid Oda actually have one of Luffy's forms have its drawback be relevant beyond its debut battle :alex2.

The best way to execute these types of power up expirations is through it being enough to deplete the enemy enough the protagonist taking them down through their base abilities would be feasible. Jotaro causing enough damage to DIO from his limited timestops to beat him without them kind of counts as this. Unfortunately, few series tend to utilise such a thing or hax an antagonist's abilities to the point it's impossible, or do something to screw up the process. For example, the climax of the ToP could've been executed fine with Jiren being drained if not for his manga self getting enough of a resolve boost he went straight back up to PSSB tier and Galu's anime self suddenly going from almost completely drained to mustering enough Ki to go SSJ. Luffy VS Lucci is also another situation where it could've worked with Gear 3rd doing a lot of damage to Lucci, yet that too was ruined by Luffy asspulling his way to gaining the resolve to overcome Lucci after taking such a severe attack as the Rokuogan.
 

sei'taer

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I think it's fine when it there's a good reason for it. Like in the buu saga, Gotenks fusion limit is presented ahead of time and expands on the massive amount of energy SSJ3 uses. But more often than not it's used to put the protagonist in a position where they need more to up the suspense.

Naruto's Sennin Mode expiring before he defeats Pain

He has it sucked out of him by the Preta path Pain. The entire fight was about him managing is Sage mode use. It only expires after that at the very end of the fight on purpose because he knows Pain is aware that he can only fire two Rasenshurikens per sage mode.

Gear 4th Luffy is also worth noting in a similar vein with how unnecessary its drawbacks ended up being with its cooldown time just serving to extend the battle with Doflamingo and being pretty much abandoned thereafter, because God forbid Oda actually have one of Luffy's forms have its drawback be relevant beyond its debut battle

Being why he has to kidnap Brulee and escape the battle with Katakuri for his Haki to recharge after using Gear 4th?
 

Captain Cadaver

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sei'taer said:
Being why he has to kidnap Brulee and escape the battle with Katakuri for his Haki to recharge after using Gear 4th?
Something he still managed to do, unlike the fatigue he had against Doflamingo, and an aspect completely absent from the battle against Cracker or his spamming of it in Wano (and a quick recharge being enough to revitalise Gear 4th shows how cheap of a method something Luffy conveniently held back until Dressrosa really is). Dressrosa presented the drain of Gear 4th as making Luffy completely immobile, whereas what later events bother to include it present it as a mild inconvenience at best and never had it affect the greater outcome of a fight.
 

Papasmurf

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sei'taer said:
I think it's fine when it there's a good reason for it. Like in the buu saga, Gotenks fusion limit is presented ahead of time and expands on the massive amount of energy SSJ3 uses. But more often than not it's used to put the protagonist in a position where they need more to up the suspense.

Naruto's Sennin Mode expiring before he defeats Pain

He has it sucked out of him by the Preta path Pain. The entire fight was about him managing is Sage mode use. It only expires after that at the very end of the fight on purpose because he knows Pain is aware that he can only fire two Rasenshurikens per sage mode.

It still expired before he could deal the final blow though, even though Sage Mode was presented as what gave Naruto a fighting chance against Pain.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Kenshi said:
It still expired before he could deal the final blow though, even though Sage Mode was presented as what gave Naruto a fighting chance against Pain.
Pretty much. It'd be like if all the foreshadowing of Super Saiyan being what was necessary to defeat Freeza being thrown aside by having the form expire and Galu beat him through some contrived means in base or Kaioken for the sake of subverting expectations.
 

Papasmurf

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Not to mention Pain putting up a fight against Rokubi Naruto and being one-shotted by a drained Naruto's Rasengan was pretty stupid.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Plus it's not as if you can use the excuse that Rokubi Naruto drained a boatload of Pain's chakra for the outcome, considering Nagato still had enough for a mass revival immediately after. :alex2
 

Papasmurf

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Yeah when Naruto went Hachibi and broke out of Pain's Jibaku Tensei he said he could make it even bigger to trap him, so chakra fatigue really doesn't explain it.
 

Pocket-Gog~

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It's just used for tension and stakes, since the main protagonist has a limited amount of time before he can beat the main villain.
 

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