Some things about the common norm that don't make cents to me

[kriss-]

a) Super Boo's increases.
There is literally no supporting to suggest that he increased to the degree that a majority of people claim, nothing at all.

b) Gotenks SSj Post-RoSaT.
Gotenks becoming so incredibly powerful after such a short time doesn't have any concrete evidence to prove it. Gotenks SSj Post likely lived up to the expectations after he had some training, because Super Boo was still suppressed to the level of Innocent Boo, nobody noticed a change in Ki and implied that he was radically from before. Super Boo's temporary power up was simply a test to see his new abilities.

c) Gotenks SSj Pre
Him being sensed from the Kaioshin realm likely didn't happen, and him becoming stronger than Innocent Boo isn't entirely a fact as well. He based his strength on his speed, and we all know that speed does not correlate with strength. Nobody noticed his Chi from the Kaioshin realm either, so he likely isn't as powerful as he wasn't made out to be, yet people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and make him stronger than Goku and Innocent Boo without any supporting evidence that proves these ideas

d) Ultimate Gohan
People say he has to be stronger than Goku SSj3 by default, because he was brought past his limits. Well... he was brought past his OWN limits, and we've only ever seen him cap out at Mssj level, which is below Goku & Vegeta, so his ritual shouldn't have any bearing on Goku. Yet people are willing to make him eons stronger for no apparent reason.

Discuss

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There are quite a few things that suggests Super Boo is a lot stronger.

1) He's immediately sensed from the Kaioshin world. At no point was Fat Boo's super enraged state shown to reach the Kaioshin world, showing that the change to Super Boo was far more significant.

2) His sudden appearance on the lookout left Piccolo with no choice to send the kids into the rosat. The rosat was never a factor when Fat Boo was the obstacle. You can say Super Saiyan Gotenks is weaker, but then you'll have to ask youself: why was Piccolo so quick to tell Base Gotenks he had no chance against Fat Boo and not Super Saiyan Gotenks.

3) According to Piccolo, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is the first opponent to demonstrate enough power to be his equal. That establishes a different level of power in comparison to Super Saiyan 3 Goku/Fat Boo.

Why would he be suppressed to Fat Boo's level, though? His power was already big enough to grab the attention of those on the Kaioshin world.

When Goku realizes that Super Boo's Chi is gone, he wonders why he can't sense the "Fused Chi" of the kids. If he never sensed Super Saiyan Gotenks, it seems odd that he'd even mention them right there. Taking place off-panel wouldn't exactly be a surprise. Gotenks never based his power off of his speed. According to Piccolo, Super Saiyan Gotenks' power was incredible, but he wanted to see how that would correlate with his movement. Gotenks was just showing that his speed was as impressive as his power. Either way, Piccolo doesn't seem to doubt Gotenks' power here.

Gohan's limits>Goku's limits. This is even acknowledged by Vegeta in Super.

 

[kriss-]

It can kind of be implied that Fat Boo was also sensed from the Kaioshin realm. This is evident when Goku notices a change in Boo's Chi, meaning he was sensing it all along. Piccolo only sent the boys into the RoSaT once Super Boo was able to sense their location. He didn't suggest that beforehand. Piccolo was basing that opinion on the false pretense that Goku was weaker than Boo all along. Nobody noticed a change in Boo's Chi after he did his temporary power-burst, it's implied that it was so because Boo is seen examining his body. Other notable Chi sensors didn't notice any difference in Boo, the boys had to be told that his power increased for them to be aware of a change in the battle power department. Herms has clarified that it's subjective and that he's probably talking about Boo, so Gotenks doesn't need to be sensed from the Kaioshin realm if one doesn't believe he was. Limits and potential are different things.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Actually, I'd say the opposite is implied. Goku quickly asks Kaioshin if that was Majin Boo's Chi, which kinda implies everything that took place happened all at once. If he was keeping up with Fat Boo the entire time, there's no reason for all of them to come off as surprised after he transformed. Goku, Kaioshin, and Kibito all look confused there. The entire process of Boo splitting was unknown to Goku, so we know for a fact Kaioshin was watching the Earth when all of this was taking place.

Krillin asked Piccolo if fusion was still going to be enough, with Piccolo basically saying no by his delayed answer. So Piccolo already thought Gotenks' current level was likely not enough to handle Super Boo, but the sudden arrival of Super Boo forced his hand. Also, everyone doesn't need to notice the change when many others did. The point remains that Super Boo's change was a drastic one.

Gohan as a hybrid exceeds Goku in pretty much every area other than the love for fighting. When both reached their limits in the rosat, Gohan's latent power was still far greater than Goku's was. Old Kaioshin's ritual was focused on his dormant power, Super Saiyan 3 is focused on the Saiyans dormant power. Gohan's dormant power is taken far beyond its limits while Super Saiyan 3 brought Goku to his limits. Using that logic alone, Gohan ends up being the superior one of the two.

 

[kriss-]

I won't buy into throwing out the opinions of other notable Chi sensors. It's was a temporary power-burst, hence why nobody but Dende and Piccolo noticed it and nobody else it, this is also another reason why Kuririn asks Piccolo if Gotenks can still win, because he doesn't notice any change, the Viz translation conforms to this idea as well.

Gohan's dormant power was kind of retconned by the Boo Saga, so I wouldn't make it a principal for Gohan to be stronger. The recent material implies the complete opposite, regardless of what promotional material or a biography may imply. In Universe material always holds precedence over out of Universe material.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

In this instance, Piccolo's opinion overrides Krillin's because he sensed what took place. That burst was enough to reach the Kaioshin world and convince Piccolo that they had a real problem on their hand, so it's not something you can discard.

How was it retconned? Old Kaioshin said he'd make Gohan the strongest in the universe when he's finished with him--and later says the process was taking long because of the amount of power he had. His dormant power was still regarded as huge even in the Boo saga.

 

[kriss-]

It only overrides Kuririn because he sensed Boo's temporary power-burst. Nobody knows that Boo became more powerful, this also leads me to believe that Gotenks SSj Pre was a work in progress and was able to finally match Boo once he trained inside the RoSaT. The scuffle he had with Super Boo (Initial), whose equal to Innocent Boo, is evident that he would be capable of defeating him.

During the Cell Games, Gohan was intended as being able to control his full enraged power, and this has/was always regarded as being greater than Goku. Yet Goku surpassed it, so it seems Toriyama retconned potential once more.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

If we're going by that, then Krillin (someone who clearly sensed both Goku and Fat Boo) thinks Super Saiyan Gotenks is in that class as well.

Goku surpassed Kid Gohan by undergoing special training in Otherworld. That doesn't really say anything about Gohan's limits; just that Goku found a way to surpass him through different means while Gohan stopped training altogether.

 

[Tapion]

metal4ever already debunked the "Goku planned the boys to use the RoSaT against Fat Buu" argument

 

[kriss-]

Kuririn was giving Gotenks the benefit of the doubt when he called him haughty, so his opinion isn't based on what power he sensed from Gotenks.

According to your theory, it should be impossible for Goku to surpass Kid Gohan, but it happened.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Krillin isn't stupid. He knows how strong Gotenks is and notes it while noting that his attitude was still awful. If the power was that inferior to the last huge powers established, he would've been well aware. Piccolo had no qualms saying Base Gotenks was trash to Boo, so why would he not do the same if this was the case with Super Saiyan Gotenks.

Because Goku broke his limits by receiving special training in Otherworld.

 

[kriss-]

He calls him haughty, I suggest you google the definition of the word.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Bruh, I suggest you remember what part you're referring to. He called Base Gotenks haughty, not Super Saiyan Gotenks.

 

[kriss-]

Nobody confirmed that Gotenks was strong enough. Piccolo was still testing him out and Gotenks makes the mistake of thinking he's powerful enough to take Boo because of his speed, well this isn't a fact and we all know this. Before Piccolo can fully test him out, he takes off, simple.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yet it was confirmed that Base Gotenks wasn't.

Uh, you do realize Piccolo only wanted to see if his speed matched up with his power, right? That's the only thing Piccolo was testing because Gotenks' power was good enough. Gotenks demonstrated far more speed than Piccolo could ever hope to assess, so the test was finished.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo never had the chance to fully test him out and what we're told is that Gotenks thinks he's strong enough base on his speed, whereas speed can be as much as 33% lower than their battle power, as seen when Goku on Namek is faster than Ginyu, despite Ginyu being 33% stronger.

So no, it's never confirmed anywhere and it never will be.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gotenks flew around the world and took a nap before Piccolo could even get to him. He ain't exactly in a position to be testing anyone that far outta his league to begin with. The only thing said about Ginyu is that his maximum level is 120k. We have no way of knowing he actually used that in battle. Actually, since Goku (less than 85k during the battle) wasn't even 90k, it's more likely than not that Ginyu was never at full-power. Knowing that, it isn't viable enough to be used as a comparison here.

It's strongly implied, which supersedes the idea of Super Saiyan Gotenks being fodder to Fat Boo. The other is just an opinion that isn't even implied within the story itself.

 

[Emmeth]

About Gohan.

Elder Kai says he can make Gohan the best in the universe (strongest, most durable, fastest) and is never proven wrong:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.4-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”
Elder Kaioshin: “Still…I thought the person who’d pull that sword out and release me would be some Kaioshin…To think that it would be an Earthling…It’s the end of the world!”
Kaioshin: “My…my sincerest apologies…”


Even Goku is surprised at the amount of power Gohan is hiding. That implies he's weaker by a great deal.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P4.9, P5.1-2
Context: after Gohan’s unintentional display of power
Goku: “…Am…amazin’…So he really wasn’t just some regular dirty old geezer?...*talking to Kaioshin* ‘Do-dormant ability’…That’s a person’s true power, that they have hidden all along…Right?”
Kaioshin: “Ye-yeah…I-I think so…”
Goku: “Mu-must be…Man, Go-Gohan…Just how the heck much power is he hidin'?...”


Which leads me to Gotenks. Trunks is adamant that Gohan isn't too much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks which Goten never denies:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4-5
Context: after Boo disappears
Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan! [Gohan] was about as strong as our Super Gotenks!”
Goten: “He was even stronger.”
Trunks: “Really? …Yeah…Just a little bit.”

 

[kriss-]

You're using a one dimensional perspective to support you opinion, and I will not, do not, support that.

 

[Emmeth]

You're using a one dimensional perspective to support you opinion, and I will not, do not, support that.

I'm offering my opinion on the matter. Whether it's one dimensional or not is completely irrelevant.