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Gotenks Post-RoSaT
For my thoughts on Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT:
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
For my thoughts on Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT:
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
This very well may be the most controversial topic in Dragonball. I doubt my opinion will sway many minds but try to keep an open mind.
We're going to cover some basic rules set forth by Toriyama in his interviews and than we'll tackle the translations and common misconceptions. Albeit, it's not as long as my previous thread, but that's only because there aren't as many arguments for Gotenks Post.
Toriyama states that Goku only just realized that the secret to getting stronger is by mastering his Base & Super Saiyan form. In another interview, he goes even further by stating that all the characters in the Majin Boo Saga had reached max strength and couldn't get any stronger, this includes Gotenks. It's completely reasonable that Gotenks hadn't -and still hasn't, realized this training method. That's why Piccolo didn't notice a significant difference from the boys individually. They spent more time acquiring the bigger and better Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to doing any actual training to benefit the sum of the parts. Do you want more convincing evidence to support this? The first time they actually 'achieve' Super Saiyan 3 is 6 hours before Super Boo shows up, or just as Piccolo & Boo are walking to the entrance. Obviously it consumed the entire duration of their stay to achieve.
According to this formula it's impossible for Gotenks to surpass his previous Super Saiyan form in only his Base form. The boys only spent 1 week in the Room of Spirit and Time, and they were only achieved Super Saiyan 3 at the end off the duration of their stay.
Goku says they have to start learning to fuse right away because nobody knows when Majin Boo might find them. Piccolo offers to use the RoSaT to speed up the process, but Goku refrains from using it and says that they might need it later, because they are going to learn to fuse quickly. So Gotenks Post-RoSaT is simply receiving training that he would have received anyways. Especially if you follow my Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT thread.
Now let's get into it:
Gotenks Post-RoSaT
How powerful is Super Boo during the early chapters of the Fusion Arc? Well... Super Boo (Initial) performed a quick power-up to see how much more he improved, and this made Piccolo, and only Piccolo, shit himself. However, it was merely a burst of energy (think Goku Ssj2 Burst) than he immediately powers down after this; hence why nobody but Piccolo noticed this change in Chi. Now that Super Boo & Piccolo both understand that he's surpassed the Fat Majin Boo in terms of battle power -and because the other Chi sensors didn't notice a change in power, this means that Super Boo is roughly the same power as Innocent Boo was when he enters the Room of Spirit and Time.
In the RoSaT, Goten & Trunks believe their 'normal' form to be about equal with this particular Boo. However when they attack Boo their estimation is quickly dismissed and Gotenks Base Post is actually still a whole lot weaker than Innocent Boo.
See 'Counters' (below) for the counter to this. I don't feel like I have to state the same thing twice.
Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT still believes he's fighting someone around Innocent Boo's level of strength. And he thinks his attacks should of had some effect... they don't.
Super Boo still hasn't powered up in his bout' with Gotenks, so he's still fighting him with power akin to that of Innocent Boo. However, he still thinks Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT is a complete weakling. To me this suggests Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT is nowhere near Innocent Boo's level of power.
Here is one of my new, favorite statements. In my previous Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT argument, I covered the idea that fusion was only mastered after the boys entered the RoSaT. This proves it.
Gotenks finally decides to turn into a Super Saiyan, now he finally manages to at least do something against Boo. This is the first true indication that Gotenks has reached the level Goku said he would.
Here is the first indication that Super Boo finally powers up. Doing this feat requires the power of a Super Saiyan 3. Hence why Super Boo had to exert so much effort to do it and Gotenks had to go beyond the level of Super Saiyan to replicate it.
Argument: Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT surpassed his previous SSj level
Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.
Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.
Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.
Argument: Piccolo doubted Gotenks Ssj Pre's Power but not Gotenks Base Post
Counter Argument: See the first two points above.
Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.
Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).
Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo
Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.
Argument: Gotenks has to have Super Saiyan 2.
Counter-Argument: Actually no. Goku already demonstrated Super Saiyan 1-3 against the Fat Majin Boo and Goten was watching this entire demonstration. Goten is also the one who says: 'I can't believe there is something beyond Super Saiyan', and Trunks doesn't contradict his statement. This means they went from Super Saiyan 1 right to Super Saiyan 3.
Argument: Gotenks had sparks in one panel, that means he was Super Saiyan 2!
Counter-Argument: Vegetto had sparks when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Nappa had sparks when he powered up. These 'sparks' can simply be the result of Gotenks transforming into Super Saiyan 3; which is essentially what he's doing.
Argument: Even if Gotenks doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 he still get's the boost.
Counter-Argument: The hell?
Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.
Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.
Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.
Argument: Piccolo doubted Gotenks Ssj Pre's Power but not Gotenks Base Post
Counter Argument: See the first two points above.
Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.
Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).
Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo
Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.
Argument: Gotenks has to have Super Saiyan 2.
Counter-Argument: Actually no. Goku already demonstrated Super Saiyan 1-3 against the Fat Majin Boo and Goten was watching this entire demonstration. Goten is also the one who says: 'I can't believe there is something beyond Super Saiyan', and Trunks doesn't contradict his statement. This means they went from Super Saiyan 1 right to Super Saiyan 3.
Argument: Gotenks had sparks in one panel, that means he was Super Saiyan 2!
Counter-Argument: Vegetto had sparks when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Nappa had sparks when he powered up. These 'sparks' can simply be the result of Gotenks transforming into Super Saiyan 3; which is essentially what he's doing.
Argument: Even if Gotenks doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 he still get's the boost.
Counter-Argument: The hell?
Toriyama states that both Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 derive from the original Super Saiyan transformation. This also means that SSj 3 doesn't derive from SSj2. Therefore you don't need it to acquire SSj3, you just need the base product, SSj. Think of it like building blocks. You start off with 1 block (SSj), and than you go to SSj2 and suddenly you have 2 blocks. Next you go to SSj3 and you have 8 blocks. Whereas if you jump from SSj to SSj3, you only wind up with 4 blocks. Same principal here.
Conclusion:
Gotenks Post-RoSaT finally lived up to the expectations of being capable of besting Innocent Boo, even though this was only viable with Super Saiyan. His Base transformation is obviously misunderstood by the general community. Further-more, the boys spent almost all of their time trying to achieve Super Saiyan 3, are far too young to realize and reap the benefits of proper training, and didn't end up powering up hugely after all their training was said and done. One can definitely argue that they are powerful at such as a young age, can turn Super Saiyan, blah blah blah. But having potential is completely different than knowing how to use it. Even during the events of End of Z the boys are slacking off.
Piccolo's estimations and reactions shouldn't be counted as reliable in this particular saga. He wasn't able to compare Majin Vegeta to Kid Gohan accurately or with certainty. This is a perfect example of his inability to gauge fighters of this calibre. Teen Gohan believed that his power as a Kid might manage something against Innocent Boo, while Vegeta laughs of Innocent Boo's power and remarks himself and Goku as being greatly above that. A good metaphor for Piccolo trying to determine whose stronger than who is to picture him standing below two skyscrapers and trying to determine which one is higher. He's simply out of his league here.
Conclusively, it isn't a fact that Gotenks became so insurmountably more powerful in a few short days, or that he has to have Super Saiyan 2 or that his Base form surpassed his Super Saiyan self. Everything can be looked at in another way. Super Boo could either be slightly stronger than Gotenks or slightly weaker than him, the two are definitely interchangeable.
Piccolo's estimations and reactions shouldn't be counted as reliable in this particular saga. He wasn't able to compare Majin Vegeta to Kid Gohan accurately or with certainty. This is a perfect example of his inability to gauge fighters of this calibre. Teen Gohan believed that his power as a Kid might manage something against Innocent Boo, while Vegeta laughs of Innocent Boo's power and remarks himself and Goku as being greatly above that. A good metaphor for Piccolo trying to determine whose stronger than who is to picture him standing below two skyscrapers and trying to determine which one is higher. He's simply out of his league here.
Conclusively, it isn't a fact that Gotenks became so insurmountably more powerful in a few short days, or that he has to have Super Saiyan 2 or that his Base form surpassed his Super Saiyan self. Everything can be looked at in another way. Super Boo could either be slightly stronger than Gotenks or slightly weaker than him, the two are definitely interchangeable.
