The Rivalry Boost

[ahill1]

Old Kai, after scooling Kibitoshin from thinking the Potara was the only reason for Vegetto being so awesome, also said "what's more, they are rivals... that's definitely the strongest...". What if this "they are rivals" is relaed to them being close in power rather than trying to outdo each other? This makes more sense imo, as I don't think old Kai could gauge some other type of rivalry over a few seconds talk, in which Goku just didn't opt to use his full power against Vegeta, who was angry towards him because of it. Being close in power could also make the fusion better, compared to 2 fusers who were pretty afar from each other, *cough cough* Kaioshin and Kibito.

Then basically, "idiot, it's not just the Potaras, look at yourself, you are a Potara fusion and yet u suck!! What's more, the two fusers are close in power, or the same (unlike U), making this shit even stronger!!"

 

[Keedounan]

Old Kai, after scooling Kibitoshin from thinking the Potara was the only reason for Vegetto being so awesome, also said "what's more, they are rivals... that's definitely the strongest...". What if this "they are rivals" is relaed to them being close in power rather than trying to outdo each other? This makes more sense imo, as I don't think old Kai could gauge some other type of rivalry over a few seconds talk, in which Goku just didn't opt to use his full power against Vegeta, who was angry towards him because of it. Being close in power could also make the fusion better, compared to 2 fusers who were pretty afar from each other, *cough cough* Kaioshin and Kibito.

Then basically, "idiot, it's not just the Potaras, look at yourself, you are a Potara fusion and yet u suck!! What's more, the two fusers are close in power, or the same (unlike U), making this shit even stronger!!"

Two of the strongest in the universe who also happen to be close in power definitely makes more sense imo. I never really thought that gods' treasure would give a boost that encourage competition, fighting between each other, etc.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Viz worded it better. Both are outdoing each other and does make sense. There's no need for Elder Kaioshin to know about those Saiyans rivalry, because the fusion shouldn't be that strong then it makes sense that it does have a rivalry boost hence Vegito is so strong. It feels like this thread's agenda to not make Goku/Vegeta as rivals.

 

[ahill1]

I agree, Mirai SSJ.

How did VIZ word it better when what I referred was taken from the original dialogue, Fearless? There's no mention of the "they live to outdo each other" in the original, so the "they are rivals" can simply be atributted to such closeness in power, specially when it makes more sense considering Old Kai could be able to sense Goku and Vegeta's power and deduce they are close, if not equal. The "they are rivals" was already used in the series in more than one occasion pertaining a power comparison (a Saibaimen rivaling Raditz, Kamiccolo rivaling #18 and #17), so the "they are rivals" can be looked upon under a power perspective imo.

According to the Oxford dictionary, being rivals can also mean a person or thing that equals another in quality:

A person or thing that equals another in quality.

Another definition would be a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or superiority in the same field of activity, and I don't see why Goten and Trunks would be out of this type of rivalry, considering they also aim to be stronger than the other, as seen when kid Trunks pushed his training even harder upon learning Goten would be participating.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I agree, Mirai SSJ.

How did VIZ word it better when what I referred was taken from the original dialogue, Fearless? There's no mention of the "they live to outdo each other" in the original, so the "they are rivals" can simply be atributted to such closeness in power, specially when it makes more sense considering Old Kai could be able to sense Goku and Vegeta's power and deduce they are close, if not equal. The "they are rivals" was already used in the series in more than one occasion pertaining a power comparison (a Saibaimen rivaling Raditz, Kamiccolo rivaling #18 and #17), so the "they are rivals" can be looked upon under a power perspective imo.

According to the Oxford dictionary, being rivals can also mean a person or thing that equals another in quality:

A person or thing that equals another in quality.

Another definition would be a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or superiority in the same field of activity, and I don't see why Goten and Trunks would be out of this type of rivalry, considering they also aim to be stronger than the other, as seen when kid Trunks pushed his training even harder upon learning Goten would be participating.

So you want to agree on another defination of rivals? Both the anime and Viz version clearly refers to them as rivals that is not close in power but actual rival who live to oudo each other.
.

Spoiler

two rivals teamed together? Does that scream rival in power to you? Nope, it scream two rivals who hate each other [at least Vegeta] team together against Boo.
.

Spoiler

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/42-310.0/compressed/kdragon_ball_z_v026-029.jpg?token=1b10c356cbe9085efec0fd70431f81ef&ttl=1496505600

Here, Viz worded it correctly which fits in the context. Forget about Goten and Trunks, they don't have any history where they try to kill each other or compete each other [except Budokai] unlike Goku and Vegeta which was way back since Gohan was a kid.

 

[ahill1]

Both the anime and Viz version clearly refers to them as rivals that is not close in power but actual rival who live to oudo each other.

VIZ does, the Japanese anime doesn't state such. The "live to outdo each other" is just VIZ tweaking the line a bit to fit better their own interpretation. Besides, Goku doesn't live to outdo Vegeta... he clearly wants to be the strongest, but once he surpassed Vegeta he has been aiming for other people, unlike Vegeta, who is always like "I'll surpass you, Kakarrot!!!". They aren't sharing mutual feelings here, so VIZ wording is already a bit fishy.

two rivals teamed together? Does that scream rival in power to you? Nope, it scream two rivals who hate each other [at least Vegeta] team together against Boo.

Two rivals have joined, teamed together doesn't make the "it's they hating each other" correct. "What's more, two people close in power have joined together" can make sense just fine. Goku doesn't hate Vegeta, and Vegeta admittedly had this feeling over Goku saving his life and kind of not taking their last fight seriously.

Here, Viz worded it correctly which fits in the context.

Which context? Vegeta mentioning he is angry towards Goku saving his SSJ3 power against him? Does it sound like two fighters living to outdo each other? The "living to surpass each other" is consistent only with Vegeta, since he is generally a step behind Goku and can't withstand being surpassed by a low class warrior. Goku isn't striving for surpassing Vegeta and the closest excitement he ever had towards Vegeta after their battle on Earth was being excited at fighting him at the Tournament, and said excitement quickly dissipates after that stolen energy mystery, while Vegeta doesn't like turning off their fight. Just shows how much Goku cares about Vegeta compared to how Vegeta cares about him.

Forget about Goten and Trunks, they don't have any history where they try to kill each other or compete each other [except Budokai] unlike Goku and Vegeta which was way back since Gohan was a kid.

Which doesn't matter, since being rivals can be looked upon as simply seeking for the same goal or competing with each other on the same field.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

VIZ does, the Japanese anime doesn't state such. The "live to outdo each other" is just VIZ tweaking the line a bit to fit better their own interpretation. Besides, Goku doesn't live to outdo Vegeta... he clearly wants to be the strongest, but once he surpassed Vegeta he has been aiming for other people, unlike Vegeta, who is always like "I'll surpass you, Kakarrot!!!". They aren't sharing mutual feelings here, so VIZ wording is already a bit fishy.

So your argument is Viz interpreted it on their opinion? That's not good, the manga even says that Goku and Vegeta are rivals here.

Spoiler

So I guess it means their rival because their power is close?

Two rivals have joined, teamed together doesn't make the "it's they hating each other" correct. "What's more, two people close in power have joined together" can make sense just fine. Goku doesn't hate Vegeta, and Vegeta admittedly had this feeling over Goku saving his life and kind of not taking their last fight seriously.

Nope, that doesn't make sense at all. Goku and Vegeta teaming together is a big deal because they're not friends, they're rivals! It's stupid to say that they're teaming together because of their power is close hence that made their fusion special. What's more, Goku and Vegeta aren't rival in their power, don't forget Goku's SSjin3 form. Goku said the fusion is greater than the two individual's power aka [SSjin3 Goku and SSjin2 Vegeta]. Therefore they're not rival in power but a true rivals that outdo each other.

Which context? Vegeta mentioning he is angry towards Goku saving his SSJ3 power against him? Does it sound like two fighters living to outdo each other? The "living to surpass each other" is consistent only with Vegeta, since he is generally a step behind Goku and can't withstand being surpassed by a low class warrior. Goku isn't striving for surpassing Vegeta and the closest excitement he ever had towards Vegeta after their battle on Earth was being excited at fighting him at the Tournament, and said excitement quickly dissipates after that stolen energy mystery, while Vegeta doesn't like turning off their fight. Just shows how much Goku cares about Vegeta compared to how Vegeta cares about him.

Doesn't matter, according to the manga or Toriyama, Vegeta is Goku's archrival.

Which doesn't matter, since being rivals can be looked upon as simply seeking for the same goal or competing with each other on the same field.

And what's wrong with that? They're not rivals like their father, period.

 

[ahill1]

So your argument is Viz interpreted it on their opinion? That's not good, the manga even says that Goku and Vegeta are rivals here.

My point is that bringing up VIZ here isn't relevant because the line isn't the same as the original and we don't know how it's meant to be interpreted. VIZ has old Kai saying they live to outdo each other, which isn't true according to Goku's persepctive. The two are seeking for being the strongest, but Vegeta has a way more obsessed view over Goku than vice-versa even when it's not clear who's the strongest (see Budokai's stuff).

So I guess it means their rival because their power is close?

Is that the same in the original? Anyhow, I'm not saying the two aren't possibly rivals, just that old Kai's line can be seen under the POV of rivaling meaning being close in power.

Nope, that doesn't make sense at all. Goku and Vegeta teaming together is a big deal because they're not friends, they're rivals! It's stupid to say that they're teaming together because of their power is close hence that made their fusion special.

It does make sense because being close in power might be some crucial thing in doing the fusion better than if the people doing the fusion were far apart. It fits well because old Kai would be basically explaining the two reasons to which Kibitoshin sucks --> the individuals were never anything special to begin with and they were far apart in power, making the fusion's overall power even worse. An assumption? Maybe, but it's just as much of an assumption as saying the fusion being formed by two individuals who competes with each other for the same goal makes it stronger.

Doesn't matter, according to the manga or Toriyama, Vegeta is Goku's archrival.

Which I never denied, although I'd still like to see the original's manga description of Vegeta, to see if it indeed described him as Goku's arch rival. Just saying that old Kai's line doesn't have to be referencing to a rivaling in "seeking the same goal".

And what's wrong with that? They're not rivals like their father, period.

They are still rivals, seeing as they were shown in more than one occasion competing with each and trying to be better than the other.

Even Kuririn is defined as Goku's rival in a title chapter, according to VIZ:

And honestly them competing with each other is not much different from Goten and Trunks' stuff, even if it wasn't as serious as Goku and Vegeta, which is still more of a one sided rivalry.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

My point is that bringing up VIZ here isn't relevant because the line isn't the same as the original and we don't know how it's meant to be interpreted. VIZ has old Kai saying they live to outdo each other, which isn't true according to Goku's persepctive. The two are seeking for being the strongest, but Vegeta has a way more obsessed view over Goku than vice-versa even when it's not clear who's the strongest (see Budokai's stuff).

Then again, what is the original line? Both versions said the exact thing except the other version can be interpret on another way that's all. It's just Viz translated it way better than Herms. Like I said in my previous post, Goku and Vegeta are not rival in their powers that's a fact.

Is that the same in the original? Anyhow, I'm not saying the two aren't possibly rivals, just that old Kai's line can be seen under the POV of rivaling meaning being close in power.

Why not? Maybe you can ask those fags about this meanwhile my point still stands as Goku and Vegeta are rivals.

It does make sense because being close in power might be some crucial thing in doing the fusion better than if the people doing the fusion were far apart. It fits well because old Kai would be basically explaining the two reasons to which Kibitoshin sucks --> the individuals were never anything special to begin with and they were far apart in power, making the fusion's overall power even worse. An assumption? Maybe, but it's just as much of an assumption as saying the fusion being formed by two individuals who competes with each other for the same goal makes it stronger.

Goku and Vegeta are not rival in terms of power since Goku has a SSjin3 form while Vegeta doesn't and stuck with his SSjin2 form, that's not rival.

Which I never denied, although I'd still like to see the original's manga description of Vegeta, to see if it indeed described him as Goku's arch rival. Just saying that old Kai's line doesn't have to be referencing to a rivaling in "seeking the same goal".

Yeah, you do that.

They are still rivals, seeing as they were shown in more than one occasion competing with each and trying to be better than the other.

Even Kuririn is defined as Goku's rival in a title chapter, according to VIZ:

And honestly them competing with each other is not much different from Goten and Trunks' stuff, even if it wasn't as serious as Goku and Vegeta, which is still more of a one sided rivalry.

I never denied this either, but what I meant was the rivalry of Goku and Vegeta is greater than their kids.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

This topic should be on the DB Discussion section.

 

[ahill1]

Then again, what is the original line?

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Both versions said the exact thing except the other version can be interpret on another way that's all.

And I am presenting is another interpretation of the line. If rival have been used in a context pertaining power before, then I don't see the problem with it also meaning them being ~ in power in this context.

It's just Viz translated it way better than Herms.

Herms is just translating what is in the original. Saying VIZ translated it better is the same as saying "it should be this way in the original...". It's okay, but it won't change what was in the original.

Like I said in my previous post, Goku and Vegeta are not rival in their powers that's a fact.

They are rivals/the same power in each form minus SSJ3, which Vegeta lacks. So I don't see the problem in old Kai only accounting the form Vegeta possess. The Daizenshuu also defined Goten as Gohan's equal, even though we know the former would be far outstripped by Gohan SSJ2.

Why not? Maybe you can ask those fags about this meanwhile my point still stands as Goku and Vegeta are rivals.

Goku and Vegeta are not rival in terms of power since Goku has a SSjin3 form while Vegeta doesn't and stuck with his SSjin2 form, that's not rival.

See above. They also fused while in base and Goku stated he could have fused with either Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive, to which I think it's fair to assume they rivalry only comes from the forms Vegeta possess.

I never denied this either, but what I meant was the rivalry of Goku and Vegeta is greater than their kids.

It's still rivalry nonetheless, so if Goku and Vegeta's fusion is beneffited by any boost from rivalry, so would the kids'. Unless you say Vegeta's rivalry >> Goten and Trunks' rivalry, meaning their boost would also be bigger.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Both versions said the exact thing except the other version can be interpret on another way that's all.

And I am presenting is another interpretation of the line. If rival have been used in a context pertaining power before, then I don't see the problem with it also meaning them being ~ in power in this context.

You don't see the problem? Goku and Vegeta are not rivals in terms of power #Fact.

Herms is just translating what is in the original. Saying VIZ translated it better is the same as saying "it should be this way in the original...". It's okay, but it won't change what was in the original.

Yup, and Herms translated it into ''rivals'' which gives us two option:

a. They're rival in terms of power
b. They're both competing each other aka ''outdo each other''.

Option a. has its flow, both are not rivals in terms of power. #Fact

Option b., the manga clearly states that Vegeta and Goku are rivals, #Fact

They are rivals/the same power in each form minus SSJ3, which Vegeta lacks. So I don't see the problem in old Kai only accounting the form Vegeta possess. The Daizenshuu also defined Goten as Gohan's equal, even though we know the former would be far outstripped by Gohan SSJ2.

Why shouldn't SSjin3 be included? Because it agrees with your opinion? Too bad, Goku clearly states that the fusion is greater than the individuals aka their full power which include SSjin3 therefore Goku and Vegeta are not rivals in terms of power. #fact

Also, I could careless what Daizenshuu thinks about it.

See above. They also fused while in base and Goku stated he could have fused with either Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive, to which I think it's fair to assume they rivalry only comes from the forms Vegeta possess.

The fusion can still work but that wouldn't make them perfect since they're not rivals like Goku and Vegeta. Unless you think Goku and Gohan will received a rival boost too if Goku suppress his power to Gohans.

It's still rivalry nonetheless, so if Goku and Vegeta's fusion is beneffited by any boost from rivalry, so would the kids'. Unless you say Vegeta's rivalry >> Goten and Trunks' rivalry, meaning their boost would also be bigger.

Again, I didn't deny that, the rival boost comes with extreme rivalry like Goku and Vegeta had unlike their kids playful rivalry which is laughable at best. What's more, Gotenks is a joke! Forget about that clown!

 

[ahill1]

You don't see the problem? Goku and Vegeta are not rivals in terms of power

Only with Goku at SSJ3. In base, SSJ, SSJ2 they are rivals and considering they fused in base then mentioning a rivalry over that works just fine.

b. They're both competing each other aka ''outdo each other''.

I repeat: Goku is aiming to be the strongest, he lives to be the strongest, not to outdo Vegeta. Outdoing Vegeta was only a part of it when Vegeta had strength beyond Goku's (Saiyan saga). Right after it, Goku barely looks at Vegeta like someone he has to surpass, some hit mark. They CAN be rivals because they are seeking the same general goal (be the stronger), but so would be Vegeta and Piccolo at the at Freeza and Cell saga, considering it's stated Piccolo also aims to be the strongest. Therefore, the "they live to outdo each other" is highly innacurate as "outdoing each other" is just a byproduct of wanting to be tue strongest. Still relying in VIZ?

Option a. has its flow, both are not rivals in terms of power.

They are in the form they fused (aka base). Just because Old Kai didn't mention "they are also rivals, well, except Goku has SSJ3, which Vegeta has not", which is just silly. If they are rivals in base, then the point old Kaioshin might be trying to get accross works just fine, as they fused IN BASE and being close to each other might help in making the Potara even stronger.

Why shouldn't SSjin3 be included?

Because they fused in base and comparing each other's base would be enough to reach the conclusion of "they are rival in power and it helped the fusion". Mentioning SSJ3 would be irrelevant as they performed the fusion in a state they are both on par with each other... done!

The fusion can still work but that wouldn't make them perfect since they're not rivals like Goku and Vegeta. Unless you think Goku and Gohan will received a rival boost too if Goku suppress his power to Gohans.

If they are somewhat close in power, then sure. Goku doesn't have to suppress in order to fuse with Vegeta, while he would have to suppress down when fusing with Gohan, and there lies the difference. Kaioshin and Kibito, for example, weren't close in power, yet they suddenly fused through the Potara. IMO, Kibitoshin sucks because Kaioshin and Kibito were "weak" and also pretty distant in power. We know Kaioshin is much stronger than base Goku/Vegeta and yet Kibitoshin is way weaker than their base... yet a fusion between them does seem to be way weaker than even base Vegetto... whereas you can believe that they got a boost due to wanting to "outstrip each other", I prefer the explanation that, since they were already ~ the same in power, their fusion would just be much better.

I didn't deny that, the rival boost comes with extreme rivalry like Goku and Vegeta had unlike their kids playful rivalry which is laughable at best. What's more

Now you are just making it out to be Vegetto's boost would be bigger because Goku and Vegeta 's rivalry would be greater, whereas even the rivalry's definition doesn't entirely support this.

 

[ahill1]

Fearless, upon reading the line again, I think you are right here. When the rivalry is regarding to power, they generally state it, like "going only by power, he rivals you". Also, according to the definition in the Oxford Dictionary, the word "rival" works as a verb when meaning they are close in power, which is consistent to how it was used in the Strength Checker.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Only with Goku at SSJ3. In base, SSJ, SSJ2 they are rivals and considering they fused in base then mentioning a rivalry over that works just fine.

So you're gonna ignore SSjin3 Goku in order to fit your opinion? OK.

I repeat: Goku is aiming to be the strongest, he lives to be the strongest, not to outdo Vegeta. Outdoing Vegeta was only a part of it when Vegeta had strength beyond Goku's (Saiyan saga). Right after it, Goku barely looks at Vegeta like someone he has to surpass, some hit mark. They CAN be rivals because they are seeking the same general goal (be the stronger), but so would be Vegeta and Piccolo at the at Freeza and Cell saga, considering it's stated Piccolo also aims to be the strongest. Therefore, the "they live to outdo each other" is highly innacurate as "outdoing each other" is just a byproduct of wanting to be tue strongest. Still relying in VIZ?

Doesn't matter, Toriyama clearly states they're both rivals period.

They are in the form they fused (aka base). Just because Old Kai didn't mention "they are also rivals, well, except Goku has SSJ3, which Vegeta has not", which is just silly. If they are rivals in base, then the point old Kaioshin might be trying to get accross works just fine, as they fused IN BASE and being close to each other might help in making the Potara even stronger.

Assumption lol. Elder Kaioshin was able to see Gohan's full potential and beyond just fine then that means he knew Goku's full power which doesn't rival Vegeta's full power.

Because they fused in base and comparing each other's base would be enough to reach the conclusion of "they are rival in power and it helped the fusion". Mentioning SSJ3 would be irrelevant as they performed the fusion in a state they are both on par with each other... done!

Doesn't matter, the fusion is greater than the individual's full power like how Base Gotenks is stronger than SSjin Goten and Trunks, like how Base Vegito is greater than SSjin3 Goku and SSjin2 Vegeta and similarly how Base Gokhan is greater than Ultimate Gohan and SSjin3 Goku!

Full Power dammit!

If they are somewhat close in power, then sure. Goku doesn't have to suppress in order to fuse with Vegeta, while he would have to suppress down when fusing with Gohan, and there lies the difference. Kaioshin and Kibito, for example, weren't close in power, yet they suddenly fused through the Potara. IMO, Kibitoshin sucks because Kaioshin and Kibito were "weak" and also pretty distant in power. We know Kaioshin is much stronger than base Goku/Vegeta and yet Kibitoshin is way weaker than their base... yet a fusion between them does seem to be way weaker than even base Vegetto... whereas you can believe that they got a boost due to wanting to "outstrip each other", I prefer the explanation that, since they were already ~ the same in power, their fusion would just be much better.

Then again, Goku and Vegeta are not rival in terms of power but they're true rivals according to Toriyama himself. Come on now!

Now you are just making it out to be Vegetto's boost would be bigger because Goku and Vegeta 's rivalry would be greater, whereas even the rivalry's definition doesn't entirely support this.

Too bad, Toriyama consider Vegeta as Goku's rival and now with the current product, both are competing each other to see who's the strongest! That's a rivalry! The kids on the other hand are just rival but they can't go beyond than that like their fathers did like Elder Kaioshin said.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

wrong section