Tosh's Personal Perspective On Gotenks SSj Post

[kriss-]

After a solid couple years of examining this part of the Manga, I firmly believe that I have come up with a pretty good explanation with what occurred during this ever-so confusing part of the Manga. Approach the theory with an unbiased perspective and give it a read.



Gotenks has a predetermined expectation that was never proven or implied to be proven by any character. As a result, it's a fallacy to determine that he lived up to those expectations.

During Super Boo's initial transformation, he did a temporary power-burst to test his new abilities; this is highly implied within the Manga, because Super Boo is clearly seen examining himself. It is here that Piccolo realizes that Gotenks is boned, because of how powerful Super Boo's power-burst was, and not his superficial power.

Other notable Chi sensors do not immediately catch onto Super Boo's complete power and they don't bother commenting on it. Therefore, Super Boo's initial transformation is likely as powerful as Innocent Boo was; because he is comprised of the exact same material, so once he split and refused into one being, he began at his previous battle power before the split. Nobody noted an increase in his power, except for the people that witnessed Super Boo's temporary power-burst, hence why nobody but Dende and Piccolo caught onto it.

Even though Piccolo knows Gotenks is essentially fucked, he doesn't immediately send Gotenks into the Room Of Spirit & Time, he lets the boys continue to sleep. It is only once Super Boo reveals that he can sense Chi and shows up unexpectedly at the look-out, does Piccolo send them in, but not before.

During their room of spirit and time training, Goten & Trunks only acquire Super Saiyan 3 six hours prior to Piccolo's and Super Boo's arrival; so it's implied that they probably spent most of their time trying to achieve it as opposed to making solid gains individually, or as the sum of the product.

When Super Boo finally arrives, he is still at Innocent Boo's level and Gotenks Base Post is still unable to do anything. It is only when he transforms into a Super Saiyan do the tables turn. Super Boo's initial power -which is the same level as Innocent Boo, isn't strong enough to make the battle completely one sided, and Gotenks actually comes close to getting the better of him.

Therefore, Gotenks finally lived up to the expectations once he hit the Rost for some additional training.

Super Boo (Full Power) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks Ssj Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre

 

[kriss-]

@Evil Vegeta @withheldforprivacy get here now

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Your analysis is pretty solid on this one. The Super Boo power-burst was something I never considered, but it's a strong point . I'm going to re-read a lot of those portions of the Boo saga to see if I approach it differently. I often do that when I revisit things.

Good post.

 

[ahill1]

It's pretty unlikely initial Evil Boo was equal to Innocent Boo. Piccolo sweated bullets when Evil showed his ki and lost the hope of Gotenks winning without using the Rosat. Not to mention Piccolo said Evil Boo was better at everything.

 

[kriss-]

@Evil Vegeta Let me know if you come up with anything. This has recently been what I've been following. It really cuts that bloat out.

It's pretty unlikely initial Evil Boo was equal to Innocent Boo. Piccolo sweated bullets when Evil showed his ki and lost the hope of Gotenks winning without using the Rosat. Not to mention Piccolo said Evil Boo was better at everything.

Piccolo was only sweating once Super Boo performed his power-burst, but he was obviously concerned beforehand. There is no reason that I can think of, that this theory is not what actually occurred.

A-lot of people jumped to the conclusion that Piccolo sent the boys into the Rost pronto, but this is actually incorrect. Piccolo only makes that decision once Super Boo arrives to the look-out. That isn't the same as saying he wouldn't have anyways, but he didn't feel compelled to just yet.

Piccolo stating that everything increased about Super Boo actually further proves my theory. Because it shows that Kuririn -another notable Chi sensor, did not notice a difference from Super Boo's superficial Chi.

@Zoro
I'd like your opinion here. :elmo

 

[Tapion]

He could've noticed, but didn't comment it because it would be useless to point the obvious. Krillin was pretty much irrelevant at this rate, so we don't need comments from him, only from Piccolo, Gotenks, Goku, etc

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Krillin only seemed to think something was up based on how Piccolo was reacting. Before that, he appeared to be clueless to anything that was taking place.

He might be irrelevant, but it perfectly goes along with the idea of a brief power-burst. Even Goten and Trunks didn't sense the change in power when they saw Super Boo.

 

[kriss-]

@HUEBR_Tapion You disregard the opinion of Kuririn in favor of Piccolo, Gotenks and Goku... well... that shows your true colors unfortunately. In other-words, you're saying that the opinion of those three is all that matters, because it coincides with your personal interpretation of the Manga. We can not, and should not, disregard the opinions of other characters because of so and so reasons. Kuririn requires Piccolo telling him that Super Boo increased in battle power because what he was currently sensing did not match Piccolo's reaction.

Goten & Trunks also note that Super Boo has changed in appearance, but Piccolo has to affirm that it wasn't just his appearance that changed.

@Evil Vegeta

There is also a massive difference in how Kuririn and Dende view Gotenks in comparison to the present Boo. Dende watched these events unfold on Earth, while Kuririn did not. Their differentiating opinions on the matter are extremely clear when Kuririn falsely believes that Gotenks may still have a chance, but the look that Dende gives him implies that there is something greater to Majin Boo besides his superficial battle power.

 

[Tapion]

Krillin only seemed to think something was up based on how Piccolo was reacting. Before that, he appeared to be clueless to anything that was taking place.

He might be irrelevant, but it perfectly goes along with the idea of a brief power-burst. Even Goten and Trunks didn't sense the change in power when they saw Super Boo.

You're making an assumption there. Trunks states that Buu has "really changed" and we don't know if they're counting on ONLY his appearance, ONLY his Ki or both of them. Saying that they didn't notice a change in power is an assumption.

You disregard the opinion of Kuririn in favor of Piccolo, Gotenks and Goku... well... that shows your true colors unfortunately. In other-words, you're saying that the opinion of those three is all that matters, because it coincides with your personal interpretation of the Manga. We can not, and should not, disregard the opinions of other characters because of so and so reasons. Kuririn requires Piccolo telling him that Super Boo increased in battle power because what he was currently sensing did not match Piccolo's reaction.

Goten & Trunks also note that Super Boo has changed in appearance, but Piccolo has to affirm that it wasn't just his appearance that changed.

Krillin's opinion is based in the others's, as shown when he says that "GOKU said that the fusion would be the strongest" so Piccolo's word should dwarf Krillin's, because Krillin's word is based on what people tell him.

Goten and Trunks note that Super Buu has " really changed", only that, we don't know if they're counting on his ki or on his appearance. Saying that they only noticed a change in appearance is a completely baseless assumption.

However, Daizenshuu 2 states that Super Buu immediately powered up when he was formed. This is supported by Goku who was shocked with Super Buu's new ki, and Piccolo's slight doubt of Gotenks's chances.

 

[kriss-]

Krillen is unable to determine a difference between the original Innocent Boo and this new Super Boo; hence why he questions whether or not Gotenks is still an effective solution against him. The implications based on his conversation with Piccolo and Dende, imply that there is something more going on than just Super Boo's superficial battle power. Further-more, Goten and Trunks notice a change in Majin Boo, but only in his appearance. Piccolo has to inform them that more than just his appearance has changed, this is Toriyama's way of telling us that the boys only acknowledged a difference based upon what they saw and not necessary what they sensed, a difference of which was so small -if it all, that it wasn't worth mentioning.

I am disdainfully reluctant in taking what the Daizenshuu has to say seriously, it contradicts itself on several occasions. However, even if you wish to follow what it has to say, it completely works in line with my logic. Super Boo definitely received an enormous power-up, and Goku does sense him, but only when he performs his temporary power-burst to test his new abilities, nothing implies he maintained that level of power, everything that we have from the supporting characters actually implies the opposite.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You're making an assumption there. Trunks states that Buu has "really changed" and we don't know if they're counting on ONLY his appearance, ONLY his Ki or both of them. Saying that they didn't notice a change in power is an assumption.

Piccolo is the one that immediately brings up that it isn't just his appearance. Context strongly implies that they're judging him strictly on appearance. Goten asks if that's really Boo and Trunks says he's changed. There'd be no point for Piccolo to reaffirm that it wasn't just his appearance that changed if it was obvious enough to sense that he was way more powerful than before. These guys have seen Boo from the beginning, so it would've been easy enough to sense.

Krillin and the others (besides Piccolo and Dende) missing Super Boo's change also shows that his power must've quickly been suppressed right after.

Edit: Basically what Tosh said.

 

[Tapion]

Krillen is unable to determine a difference between the original Innocent Boo and this new Super Boo; hence why he questions whether or not Gotenks is still an effective solution against him.

The statement implies that Krillin is AFRAID of what would happen to them after the New Buu appeared. Krillin's stutters and the fact that he says that GOKU told them that fusion was strongest says that.

Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”

You can see that Krillin is afraid for his useless ass only by the fact that he is sweating in the scan.

The implications based on his conversation with Piccolo and Dende, imply that there is something more going than just Super Boo's superficial battle power. Further-more, Goten and Trunks notice a change in Majin Boo, but only in his appearance. Piccolo has to inform them that more than just his appearance has chaged, this is Toriyama's way of telling us that the boys only acknowledged a difference based upon what they saw and not necessary what they sensed,

But it is not a confirmation that they only acknowleged a difference in his appearance. Gotenks for instance already understimated Fat Buu before, so Piccolo can be just remarking that it's not only his appearance just in case the boys understimated him again.

I am disdainfully reluctant in taking what the Daizenshuu has to say seriously, it contradicts itself on several occassions.

But whats your proof that it is contradicting anything now?

However, even if you wish to follow what it has to say, it completely works in line with my logic. Super Boo definitely received an enormous power-up, and Goku does sense him, but only when he performs his temporary power-burst to test his new abilities, nothing implies he maintained that level of power, everything that we have from the supporting characters actually implies the opposite.

The Daizenshuu actually states that Super Buu received an enormous power boost. Why they didn't add the word "temporary" before it? It implies that he kept the boost.

And furthermore, Piccolo stating that "In every way, he is more powerful. Still." in the Viz version of the manga implies that Super Buu was already stronger than Fat Buu when Goten and Trunks noticed him for the first time

 

[kriss-]

Nothing in what you stated disregards any point I made. Instead of unnecessarily going back and deviating from the strong ideas that I put forth, I will wait for the opinion of other individuals.