True Facts About Dragonball

[kriss-]

These are new facts that the Dragonball community has found out.

a) Fusion scales linearly

In order for Goku's predications to be remotely true, fusion would have to scale linearly. Yet inside the RoSaT the kid's Base form hadn't surpassed their previous SSj transformation.

Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks SSj Pre Debunked

b) The Fusion Multiplier Is Tremendous

When Kaioshin performed the Potara ritual with Kibito his transformation didn't yield significant increases, these particular increases were likely less than 10x the sum of the product. The Metamoran is even less than that, so it's probably around the ballpark of 3x the sum of the product; that's Goten + Trunks x3.

c) Ultimate Gohan was brought way past his limits, naturally this MUST mean he's stronger than Goku by a huge margin

There is an argument that can be made for that in the manga. Goku says that to perform fusion dance the two fusees must be "fairly close in power". You can see that that's slightly different to the "exactly the same power" they need when actually fusing.

So for two people to fuse, they need to be close in power, and once that requirement is met, they need to match their Ki to be exactly the same as each other. This is further backed up by Goku saying he couldn't fuse with anyone because there was no one on par with him in the afterlife, despite Goku being able to suppress. Since Goku planned to fuse with Gohan via the fusion dance, that would make Ultimate Gohan "fairly close in power" to at least some form of Goku, likely SSj3.

Ultimate Gohan being 1,000x Goku Ssj3 is debunked

 

[withheldforprivacy]

About b, see what i posted on your Metamorian Multiplier thread. About c, one can lower his power to match the other's.

 

[kriss-]

About b, see what i posted on your Metamorian Multiplier thread. About c, one can lower his power to match the other's.

Please revise the original post.

That wasn't a factor on planet Metamor, when Goku learned the fusion but he couldn't suppress himself to undergo the ritual. In order for Goku to fuse with Ultimate Gohan he would need to be close in power, presumably with SSj3.

 

[Six Trails]

Your argument contradicts itself. If you claim that fusion scales linearly and Goku can predict it, then you're admitting to SS Gotenks pre > Fat Boo, yet you still say that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta before the ROST.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

b) The Fusion Multiplier Is Tremendous

When Kaioshin performed the Potara ritual with Kibito his transformation didn't yield significant increases, these particular increases were likely less than 10x the sum of the product. The Metamoran is even less than that, so it's probably around the ballpark of 3x the sum of the product; that's Goten + Trunks x3.

Kibito Kai is a bad example for potara fusion.

 

[Zippy]

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P2.5
Context: Goku contemplates merging with Mister Satan
Goku: “It-it’s no use doing it with Satan…I can’t win if a power of 1,000 becomes 1,001…No, if things go bad, ain’t I gonna get weaker than I am now…!?”

Fusion will always depend on the difference and nature of the people who fuse. Comparing the gain kabitoshin got to find out the gain gotenks gets is ridiculous unless you think the potara can be
A 1.001 increase and since metamorian is even smaller maybe 0.600 for gotenks?

 

[kriss-]

Your argument contradicts itself. If you claim that fusion scales linearly and Goku can predict it, then you're admitting to SS Gotenks pre > Fat Boo, yet you still say that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta before the ROST

Please revise my Gotenks SSj Pre thread in the 'Dragonball Discussion' area and the Gotenks Post RoSaT thread.

You'll see that Gotenks was only able to fight someone of Innocent Boo's calibre after training in the RoSaT and becoming a Super Saiyan. Goku's estimates were based off a false pretense so their an opinion at best.

Kibito Kai is a bad example for potara fusion.

Kibito is the only example and we know where he stands. We don't with Vegetto.

Toriyama used him to show us how large these multipliers are and they are in fact; not very large at all.

usion will always depend on the difference and nature of the people who fuse. Comparing the gain kabitoshin got to find out the gain gotenks gets is ridiculous unless you think the potara can be
A 1.001 increase and since metamorian is even smaller maybe 0.600 for gotenks?

It's a logical assertion. Nothing infers that fusion scales different for different people. That's absurd and it makes Goku's estimates unreliable to begin with and thus; your entire Gotenks arguments collapse on themselves, UNLESS, fusion scales linearly.

But even than, Gotenks didn't live up to the expectations.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Kibito is the only example and we know where he stands. We don't with Vegetto.

Toriyama used him to show us how large these multipliers are and they are in fact; not very large at all.

We saw how Vegito ended up so strong because he was made up of two greatest fighters in the universe and Kibito kai is made up of two weaklings. So we can't compare the results.

 

[kriss-]

You're absolutely correct about not being able to compare the results of Vegetto to Kibitoshin, but only because the Rage Boost has to be factored in. Under normal circumstances, the Potara ritual yields more significant increases than the Metamoran ritual. Vegetto's results weren't akin to that of a normal ritual, Kibitioshins were.

So we can definitely compare a normal Potara ritual to that of the Metamoran. And because the Potara benefits -under normal circumstances, are more significant than that of the Metamoran dance, than whatever benefits Kaioshin receivers, Goten & Trunks would receive less of. Because Kaioshin received far less than a 10x increase than this also means that the Metamoran yields far less than even that.

So take that Gotenks enthusiasts!

 

[Zippy]

Not really it's just goku's belief that was not contradicted. Even piccolo after the boys fused as super saiyan said that he wants to test his speed. leaving out his power. implying it was already enough

 

[kriss-]

Not really it's just goku's belief that was not contradicted. Even piccolo after the boys fused as super saiyan said that he wants to test his speed. leaving out his power. implying it was already enough

His belief was based on a false pretense. Contradictory statements means nothing if it's fallible from the start.

b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.

Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.

Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.

Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.

Speed does not correlate with strength
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3609

Anything else?