What was Vegeta and Goku referring to here?

[ahill1]

Were they referring the simple SSJ2 or some enranged form on top of the Super Saiyan 2? What's supposed to be Gohan getting angry?

 

[Papasmurf]

Since Kaioshit did remember stopping SSJ2 Gohan from the tournament just before Galu fought Yakon, I assume it's referring to an enraged SSJ2 Gohan not-much-unlike that whole enraged SSJ2 Vegeta mess from BoG.

 

[ahill1]

I'd want to see it as just a simple SSJ2, but Vegeta being agnostic at an enranged Gohan, despite seeing him in the Budokai and Goku stating he'd not lose to anyone that way, makes it being just SSJ2 unlikely imo.

 

[Papasmurf]

Three words: Fuck Boo arc.

 

[Papasmurf]

Three words: Fuck Boo arc.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Were they referring the simple SSJ2 or some enranged form on top of the Super Saiyan 2? What's supposed to be Gohan getting angry?

Neither of the two. They were just referring to Gohan somehow returning to the level he had at Cell Games.

 

[p123]

Vegeta's thoughts are clear.

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is laughable.

Enraged Gohan gives him pause.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, Vegeta isn't sure how he would stack compared to a potential enranged teen Gohan. SSJ2 Gohan was pretty much nothing to Vegeta according to how he treated him in the Budokai.

How strong would enranged Gohan potentially be? Should he surpass Cell Games Gohan?

And why were they referring to Cell Games Gohan, withheld? That'd imply it's not just plain SSJ2, since SSJ2 teen Gohan was treated as way weaker than SSJ2 kid Gohan.

 

[p123]

Well according to Goku, no one can defeat Enraged Gohan. If anything, it does seem to imply that Teen Gohan > Kid Gohan. I think the best way to explain that is that Gohan becoming enraged unleashes his dormant power. His latent power grows with time and that well has gotten deeper than it was as a kid.

Considering who Vegeta is for a second, you really have to reword his thoughts. If Vegeta is questioning his power against anyone else's, it's generally because the other person is much stronger. Goku straight up tells Gohan that he won't lose to anyone.

So... All in all, it does seem the Enraged Power makes sense, but AT did a horrible job of spelling it out.

When we talk about dormant power in Gohan, let's not forget how strong he became with the Zeta sword training in just one day. I suspect Old Kai had something to do with that, but his dormant ability is just oozing through in this situation.

 

[ahill1]

Well according to Goku, no one can defeat Enraged Gohan. If anything, it does seem to imply that Teen Gohan > Kid Gohan. I think the best way to explain that is that Gohan becoming enraged unleashes his dormant power. His latent power grows with time and that well has gotten deeper than it was as a kid.

That's definitely possible, but I don't like it that much. I remember Victorious saying that an enraged power depends on the base/standart power and it makes sense, since we saw this happening with Gohan more than once: Gohan enranged (vs Raditz) < Gohan enranged (vs Nappa) < Gohan enranged (vs Freeza) < Gohan enranged (vs Cell).

I don't know if teen Gohan can access the same power kid Gohan could when enranged, since his standart's power is weaker.

 

[p123]

Na, if you think about it logically, what has Gohan's rage always been in reference to? His dormant power. Piccolo wanted to train him to help vs the Saiyans to bring out that dormant power. As Gohan ages, his access to his potential increases. That's pretty much how it has always worked with Gohan. He is indeed a special case. ( Minus BOG of course )

Thoughts on Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Budokai

1) Vegeta thinks this power is a joke.
2) Kaioshin acknowledges that this is probably not his full power.

Thoughts on Enraged Gohan

1) Vegeta isn't sure how he stacks up against him.
2) After getting a glimpse of Goku's SSJ2 power, Vegeta thinks he's even stronger than Gohan was, Goku says that an angry Gohan can beat ANYONE. I'd think this include himself minus of course SSJ3, which he had no intention of ever displaying.


There are some flaws there, like how he stacks up with Buu later and all the mystery about what form he should be in, but the logic is sound is it not?

 

[ahill1]

Na, if you think about it logically, what has Gohan's rage always been in reference to? His dormant power. Piccolo wanted to train him to help vs the Saiyans to bring out that dormant power. As Gohan ages, his access to his potential increases. That's pretty much how it has always worked with Gohan. He is indeed a special case. ( Minus BOG of course )

But his dormant power increases as his base powers increases, no? Just like the SSJ transformation, whenever a Saiyan increase his base strength, the SSJ will also get stronger.

There are some flaws there, like how he stacks up with Buu later and all the mystery about what form he should be in, but the logic is sound is it not?

Well. his comments towards Fat Boo later is a headache. Gohan says "it doesn't seem there's nothing I can do... if I can just put out my true power" or something like this. What's Gohan is referring as "true power"? The same power Goku was talking about, his Cell Games power or just his SSJ2 power? We've to figure it out first.

 

[ahill1]

Besides, Gohan's comment could be interpreted as this, I guess:

"But this guy [Boo] doesn't seem as terrible as there's nothing I can do [referring to just his current power, the power he was outputing]... If I can just put out my true power [now referring to his enranged powers]"

 

[p123]

No, I think it's quite possible that Gohan's power works in a mysterious, almost magical way. As he gets older, his potential is released more and more so.

The best way to drive this point home is that Gohan trained his ass of in the ROSAT for 9 months and was able to amount to Super Saiyan Kid Gohan's power correct?

7 years later, Teen Gohan trains his ass off for one day with the Zeta Sword and his Super Saiyan power is possibly somewhere around Majin Buu. Compare Super Saiyan Teen Gohan ( Post Zeta ) to Super Saiyan Kid Gohan. That's probably the dormant power difference Goku may be hinting about. And it is a massively different power imo.

And that's exactly the situation I was talking about. Let's leave that on the side for now and continue to hash this part out.

 

[ahill1]

As for the way Gohan commented on Fat Boo's power, it seems a little weird, as you pointed out before:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

First, it raises up the question: "if I can only put out all of my true power" - what is he referring with this? The same enranged power Goku was talking about? The way Gohan worded it, it doesn't seem his enranged power would be way out of initial Fat Boo's league, while Majin Vegeta laughed at this power.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8497484/1/

 

[withheldforprivacy]

As for the way Gohan commented on Fat Boo's power, it seems a little weird, as you pointed out before:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

First, it raises up the question: "if I can only put out all of my true power" - what is he referring with this? The same enranged power Goku was talking about? The way Gohan worded it, it doesn't seem his enranged power would be way out of initial Fat Boo's league, while Majin Vegeta laughed at this power.

The greatest power Gohan had shown was his Cell Games power, so that was what he was referring to. Gohan was expected to
somehow access the power he'd lost over the 7 years, if he got mad. That's how i perceive Goku's/Vegeta's statements.

 

[p123]

Well as I said before, let's tackle that later. Right now we have three very clear statements from three different people.

1) After everyone gets a glimpse of Goku's real power ( SSJ2 ), Goku says that Gohan wouldn't lose to anyone if he went all out. He reiterates this point. Gohan would not lose to anyone. One can easily surmise that Goku means that not Dabura, not Vegeta, not Buu, not even himself can defeat a fully enraged Gohan. This doesn't make sense when we talk about training, because clearly Teen Gohan is weaker. But when we talk potential, it makes a lot of sense.

2) Vegeta's very clear LULZ at SSJ2 Gohan and Hmmm at Angry Gohan definitely paints a clear position on where Vegeta stands.

3) This goes along with Vegeta's comments about the two potential powers of Gohan, Kaioshin flat out states that SSJ2 Budokai Gohan is probably not his full power.

Also, we can go with Vegeta's confidence heading into the Budokai as well. Vegeta assumes he is superior to Gohan no matter what, only to find out that he has lost a shit ton of power, yet Vegeta respects the hell out of Gohan's power against Cell.

There are counter argument here for sure, but this picture is painted pretty easily is it not?

 

[ahill1]

There are counter argument here for sure, but this picture is painted pretty easily is it not?

Yes! Teen Gohan's enranged powers stated by Goku and Vegeta are treated as a different thing than Gohan's simple SSJ2 power.

 

[p123]

Yea. It's as clear as day. Kaioshin, Goku and Vegeta all share opinions that would lead the reader to believe that Angry Gohan > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of mixed up scenarios going on as well, I think AT painted himself into a box, and this is clearly rushed work as has been suggested by many accounts on his mentality during the Buu Saga.

Here's a couple of the key points he wants to sugget it seems.

1) He wants to bring Super Saiyan 2 back quickly in all of it's glory.
2) He seems to want to save Super Saiyan 2 as something special. The dynamic between Vegeta and Goku unfortunately feels that they were not aware of each other having the transformation.
3) Dabura around Cell, like AT usually does, he likes to use a newer low end villain to be the benchmark for the last great villain.
4) He wants to talk about Enraged Gohan, but it is very confusing...