When Do You Think They Hit Their Zenkai Limit?

[PorchMaster]

The Daizenshuu states that Zenkais became small after the Freeza arc and Super confirmed that Galu and Vegina became unable to get zenkais by the Future Trunks arc, but when do you think Zenkais became virtually nonexistent?

For Galu, I'd assume he reached his zenkai limit either around his Ginyu zenkai on Namek, or during the Yardrat/pre-Cell arc training, seeing as he wasn't able to grow stronger from having his ass whooped and his ki drained by #19.

Vegeta probably didn't hit his limit on Namek, seeing as his final power there was lower than Galu's, so I'd assume he became unable to get zenkais during his gravity training.

For Gohan, he obviously became unable to get zenkais by the time he was Ultimate, so either during the RoSaT or after his near-death by Fat Boo makes sense.

For Future Trunks, there's no way to rationalize his post-Dabura gainz unless you assume his ass whoopings at the hand of Black gave him zenkais, so probably some time before the beginning of the FT arc. I don't think Goten and Present Trunks ever hit their limit.

 

[GSM123]

Basically, Namek for them all. Perhaps Vegeta got a Zenkai on his training to fight the Androids, but we'll never know for sure.

The way I see it, the Daizenshuu entry could be coupled with Toriyama's claims on feeling like Goku and co. have reached their limits and on how only Ki training can help the Z Fighters surpass their walls. Freeza was a turning point for the characters in the series, the introduction of Super Saiyan and it's variations signify a shift in the means used to gain power. Their muscles are as tough as they could become, to a point where no Zenkai or Gravity training could help anymore. It became a spiritual pursuit to refine their Ki, where they were forced to transcend not only the realm in which they train (From Earth to the Room of Spirit and Time) but themselves (From Saiyans to Super Saiyans).

So basically I'm subscribing to the idea you just can't get Zenkais when you're a Super Saiyan.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

There were Zenkais in black saga and they functionally never ended in Top.

Zenkais forever, especially because of plot.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd essentially parrot most of what Kenshi said in the OP, with the exception that Manga Galu probably maxed out after the last Zenkai on Namek considering that whilst he was suggested to have gotten a significant boost after his Yardrat training, it wasn't to a game-changing extent, especially with it being minuscule compared to what such training has been shown to yield in Super.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea I more or less agree with everything you said Kenshi. Although I agree with GSM in that once you become a Super Saiyan, or at least once the Saiyan body is ready to become one, the Zenkais stop occurring. I believe Zenkais are a Saiyan survival instinct to get to that point. Once they reach that point they become an impossibility.

So in Gohan’s case he likely would’ve had his last one in the RoSaT if he had one at all. Vegeta’s could have been on Namek theoretically, but it’s more likely he had one during his gravity training.

I think it’s worth pointing out that the Zenkai boosts became greater and greater once the Saiyans were approaching Super Saiyan. Goku went from ~8k to 90k through several Zenkais on the space ship. After this he had one massive Zenkai prior to transforming. Vegeta followed a similar path, going from 18k to 24k after Earth, and then 250-500k post Zarbon/Reacoom. His final Zenkai brought him into the multi-millions following this progression. So I think it could be fair to say that was his final Zenkai was on Namek, but not factually so.

All of this is taking into account the original manga only. If Super is being considered then idk.

 

[PorchMaster]

Yeah Super seems to contradict the idea that you can't get zenkais once you turn Super Saiyan, seeing as Black only seemed to hit his limit once he went Rose. Future Trunks also didn't mention that turning Super Saiyan was what set the zenkai limit for Vegeta and Galu.

 

[SSJ2]

Well it’s unfortunate that I don’t give a fuck about Super.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yeah Super seems to contradict the idea that you can't get zenkais once you turn Super Saiyan, seeing as Black only seemed to hit his limit once he went Rose. Future Trunks also didn't mention that turning Super Saiyan was what set the zenkai limit for Vegeta and Galu.

Black might be exception of this?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Black might be exception of this?

Black shouldn't be able to gain Zenkais in the first place when he has the body of Post-U6 Arc Goku, nevermind gain them in the first place. His ability to do so is a major asspull.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Black might be exception of this?

Black shouldn't be able to gain Zenkais in the first place when he has the body of Post-U6 Arc Goku, nevermind gain them in the first place. His ability to do so is a major asspull.

Yeah I can see that but didn't they explained it why Black was able to pull it off due Goku's zenkai being reset or some shit?

 

[PorchMaster]

The closest thing to an explanation is that when Black received Galu's body, he had little control over it and could barely even turn Super Saiyan, which could mean its progress was reset or something.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And even that would make little sense, considering Zenakis are purely a biological factor and aren't suggested to be something linked to Ki control.

 

[PorchMaster]

Not the first time Super required such suspension of disbelief I guess

 

[SSJ2]

Cell was Super Saiyan 1.5 when he received his Zenkai.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Considering how much stronger Yardrat Goku was than his Namek self and (for what it's worth) how beaten up he seemed when he arrived on Yardrat in the anime filler, I think that the last large zenkai in the series was received by Goku after his fight against Freeza.

 

[PorchMaster]

His wounds from the Freeza fight wouldn't be enough to get a zenkai (at least not by Z logic). Vegeta was knocked unconscious by Zarbon and rendered unable to stand by Reacoom. Goku didn't sustain injuries close to that by the time that Freeza got cut in half.

 

[ahill1]

yeah I think zenkais are classified as near death power ups. goku wasn't even close to that post defeating freeza. if we follow the anime, Goku got to plant yardrat barely conscious, but that ought to be due to exhaustion, I'd wager.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

And even that would make little sense, considering Zenakis are purely a biological factor and aren't suggested to be something linked to Ki control.

Maybe because of Zamasu's influence mixed up with Goki's body? After all, Black SSjin hair color was said to have an influence from Zamasu.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Maybe because of Zamasu's influence mixed up with Goki's body? After all, Black SSjin hair color was said to have an influence from Zamasu.

That was due to the difference in his Ki as Black stated himself, which should have no influence on Saiyan biology.

 

[VampireWicked]

I say the moment they unlocked SuperSaiyan as that happened they relied more on Transformations, Fusions, than Base form itself.

It's like level farming in video games.
The higher up the NPCs/Bosses are the more experience points you get.
In most games if you at Level 1 manage to defeat a Level 50 Boss you'll gain a few Levels instead of just experience points filling maybe half your exp bar.

I believe the DragonBall Universe works the same or in a similar way.
The gains on Namek were large because that's all they had was Base form (Vegeta, Gohan, Goku) to survive with but them falling back on SuperSaiyan, 2, 3, Fusion, they reduced the gains received from tough opponents like the Androids, Cell, Dabora, Buu, etc.
That's why I also think Vegeta stayed as close to Goku powerwise as he did, & why Vegeta as a SuperSaiyan did far better against Beerus than SuperSaiyan3 Goku did.
Vegeta had less Transformations to rely on but was strengthening up.

The large PowerLevels in Super made up that difference, enemies were so powerful that the gains received using Transformations were large enough that the increases to Base were huge.