Which Gohan was Vegeta talking about?

[Lightsworn]

[No message]

 

[Kyo]

I believe Vegeta (and Piccolo later on) were referring to whatever Gohan's highest level happened to be during the Cell fight. I think Toriyama's trying to convey a simple message to us and there's no need to overcomplicate it.

I also don't believe that the later references mean much as far as a comparison between CG Gohan and Boo Goku/Vegeta go. Vegeta's line is by no means a power statement, and even he makes it clear that what happens when Gohan gets angry isn't something that you can just predict and stick into a power chain. This leads me to believe that Goku's line is more of a pep talk than anything. He's not wrong. Gohan could get angry and he might surpass everyone. But he also might not.

 

[Dioxide]

[No message]

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta was definitely referring Enrage Gohan since it was the strongest power was shown.

 

[Lightsworn]

I suppose that could make sense. Knowing Gohan is a hybrid and all, it would make sense if his potential/anger were to be brought out, he would surpass Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If it's way way beyond to it's limits then yes.

 

[Kyo]

@Dioxide: I don't believe the wording is too significant in this case. If Gohan's power while actually killing Cell is an incredibly high level that he can evidently only achieve when angry (or whatever you believe the reason may have been at the time), then why would Vegeta find it pathetic that Gohan's more casual transformation at the Budokai fails to match up to this level? It's to be expected that it wouldn't.

This is no real issue for me because I don't believe that the Gohan who fought Cell and the Gohan that killed Cell are all that different, but how would you explain it?

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Vegeta doesn't seem to care:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.â€￾
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!â€￾

It's a distinction without a difference. Goku/Vegeta are stronger than any incarnation of Cell Games Gohan.

 

[Dioxide]

@Dioxide: I don't believe the wording is too significant in this case. If Gohan's power while actually killing Cell is an incredibly high level that he can evidently only achieve when angry (or whatever you believe the reason may have been at the time), then why would Vegeta find it pathetic that Gohan's more casual transformation at the Budokai fails to match up to this level? It's to be expected that it wouldn't.

This is no real issue for me because I don't believe that the Gohan who fought Cell and the Gohan that killed Cell are all that different, but how would you explain it?

Killing and fighting would likely be two different scenarios. As expressed in the thread already, Gohan's power at the Budokai was not his full power. The burst of power that Gohan used to kill Cell was higher than the one who was fighting Cell before his power up as expressed by Goku. This same power which Goku claims the current Gohan would beat anybody with, the same power which the Daizenshuu says is equal to Gohan's power when he killed Cell back at the Cell Games which correlates well with Goku's statement that Gohan being angry would surpass himself. Vegeta's comment mainly has to do with how Gohan's current power is far off from when he killed Cell from lack of training and his inability to increase his power by anger.

 

[Kyo]

I fully understand all your points already. You didn't really answer my question. Yes, Vegeta's comment has to do with how Gohan's power is far off from when he killed Cell, according to you. But why would he find this noteworthy or disappointing? Why would he he find it pathetic that a casual transformation not brought about by anger failed to match this angry, unbeatable Gohan? Such a thing is to be expected, especially since he had already noted prior to that that Gohan had been slacking off.

I have an explanation for myself. The two incarnations of Gohan just aren't all that different if at all, so I don't have to deal with this angry unstoppable Gohan. What's your explanation?

Also, since you want to argue semantics, how do you respond to FP's counterpoint? What does Vegeta mean by "back then"? There's no distinction made there.

 

[Dioxide]

I fully understand all your points already. You didn't really answer my question. Yes, Vegeta's comment has to do with how Gohan's power is far off from when he killed Cell, according to you. But why would he find this noteworthy or disappointing? Why would he he find it pathetic that a casual transformation not brought about by anger failed to match this angry, unbeatable Gohan? Such a thing is to be expected, especially since he had already noted prior to that that Gohan had been slacking off.

I have an explanation for myself. The two incarnations of Gohan just aren't all that different if at all, so I don't have to deal with this angry unstoppable Gohan. What's your explanation?

Also, since you want to argue semantics, how do you respond to FP's counterpoint? What does Vegeta mean by "back then"? There's no distinction made there.

I feel you are putting too much stress on the situation which is only meant to convey that Gohan is not as strong as before. Vegeta can't predict exactly how much power Gohan could have lost from not training. Him noting that he isn't as powerful does not have to come from any dissappontment, since his facial expression does not indicate as such nor does he ever state Gohan is pathetic like you are making it out to be, but could from something that crossed his mind and decided to speak out on it to Kaioshin since he expressed earlier that they were after Gohan's energy and Kaioshin replies to him that even so, it is still magnificent energy.

Vegeta never specifies which power of Gohan's. Fortunately for us Piccolo does specify. And I've already expressed evidence why they likely did not mention Gohan's strongest power. One vague quote from Vegeta which was made more clear by Piccolo later on, does not change that.

 

[Kyo]

[No message]

 

[Dioxide]

He is revelaing something new. The degree to which Gohan was not as powerful as before was not specified. Also Vegeta could be repsonding to Kaiohsin regarding how Spopvich wanted to steal Gohan's energy and probably decided to tell him that he is not as powerful as before and perhaps it might not be the power they are looking for but Kaiohsin says that even so it is still magnificent energy.

Babidi's ship is different. Vegeta's attitude and behavior was to try to get controlled by Babidi and therefore had to get Dabura to notice him and acknowledge that he is not as kind hearted as the rest. It would not have to do with Vegeta talking down on Gohan where as earlier as the Budokai he expressed that he does not quite care. His intention was to get controlled and become stronger.

The very next line, Goku tells Gohan to draw out all of the power he has, in which only happened when he killed Cell. However you have a point in that they may just be interchangeable terms

 

[Kyo]

I agree that the degree to which Gohan had weakened wasn't known yet, but that's because I don't see eye to eye with you on Gohan killing Cell. You believe that Vegeta is referring to "unstoppable Gohan" (he must be, as he said "killed," otherwise the differentiation doesn't necessarily mean much), then don't you think that it's already a given that Gohan is far weaker than that, having not trained?

About Vegeta's attitude on the ship, fair enough, I didn't consider that. Two things though: I still hold that Vegeta's demeanor towards Gohan at the Budokai wasn't entirely neutral – at the very least, it was unexpected – and secondly, Goku agrees with Vegeta after he calls Gohan pathetic (though he's not as mean), which leads me to believe that Vegeta's words, regardless of his intentions in saying them, aren't unwarranted by any means.

You'd think that, if Vegeta really is making a distinction between the Gohan that fought and the Gohan that killed, he would only bother to do so if the comparison between the current Gohan and CG Gohan (while calm) wasn't worth noting (i.e. they're comparable in power), yet Gohan's power comes as a surprise to him nonetheless. Moreover, Goku agrees with the idea that Gohan is "pathetic," and he is aware that Gohan hadn't trained, as Vegeta had told him prior to the Dabra fight that Gohan hadn't trained, yet he attributes it to Gohan having "really slacked off!" instead of not being angry, given that even back at the CG, Gohan couldn't achieve such a power without being angry.

Sorry if it looks like I'm harping way too much on one point, I've never been great at being brief.

As for your last point – that's right, and that would be the contradiction like I said. By the same token, I could say that Piccolo saying "fought" doesn't have to signify anything due to the fact that Vegeta merely said "back then"? You say Vegeta's statement is vague, though I don't see it as any different from other all-encompassing statements made in the past about a character that would logically refer to said character at his/her best (like Kaioshin's "I could kill Freeza" or something), thus they're contradictory in my eyes if I'm to follow your interpretation of the word "fought." Though I suppose whether or not Vegeta's statement is vague or absolute is up in the air as well.

 

[Son Gokū]

He was talking about Gohan when he fought Cell.
Hope this helps!

 

[Dioxide]

I agree that the degree to which Gohan had weakened wasn't known yet, but that's because I don't see eye to eye with you on Gohan killing Cell. You believe that Vegeta is referring to "unstoppable Gohan" (he must be, as he said "killed," otherwise the differentiation doesn't necessarily mean much), then don't you think that it's already a given that Gohan is far weaker than that, having not trained?

About Vegeta's attitude on the ship, fair enough, I didn't consider that. Two things though: I still hold that Vegeta's demeanor towards Gohan at the Budokai wasn't entirely neutral – at the very least, it was unexpected – and secondly, Goku agrees with Vegeta after he calls Gohan pathetic (though he's not as mean), which leads me to believe that Vegeta's words, regardless of his intentions in saying them, aren't unwarranted by any means.

You'd think that, if Vegeta really is making a distinction between the Gohan that fought and the Gohan that killed, he would only bother to do so if the comparison between the current Gohan and CG Gohan (while calm) wasn't worth noting (i.e. they're comparable in power), yet Gohan's power comes as a surprise to him nonetheless. Moreover, Goku agrees with the idea that Gohan is "pathetic," and he is aware that Gohan hadn't trained, as Vegeta had told him prior to the Dabra fight that Gohan hadn't trained, yet he attributes it to Gohan having "really slacked off!" instead of not being angry, given that even back at the CG, Gohan couldn't achieve such a power without being angry.

Sorry if it looks like I'm harping way too much on one point, I've never been great at being brief.

As for your last point – that's right, and that would be the contradiction like I said. By the same token, I could say that Piccolo saying "fought" doesn't have to signify anything due to the fact that Vegeta merely said "back then"? You say Vegeta's statement is vague, though I don't see it as any different from other all-encompassing statements made in the past about a character that would logically refer to said character at his/her best (like Kaioshin's "I could kill Freeza" or something), thus they're contradictory in my eyes if I'm to follow your interpretation of the word "fought." Though I suppose whether or not Vegeta's statement is vague or absolute is up in the air as well.

It may be a given, but it doesn't mean Vegeta can't reference that to Kaioshin to tell him Gohan was more powerful before.

It would appear that Gohan's fighting technique would be what is more pathetic than anything else, which is what "slacking off" would have to do with. Even with his power advantage he is struggling against Dabura. The next panel in which Vegeta "down plays" Gohan, Dabura is shown looking at Vegeta with a surprised expression, which is exactly what Vegeta wants. Vegeta's motive is to fight Goku no matter what. He does not care about Gohan, Dabura, or even Majin Boo.

As far as object evidence goes, the Daizenshuu establishes that a frenzied Gohan in the Boo arc is equal to angry Gohan at the Cell Games. A frenzied Gohan which Goku describes would be unstoppable. Personally that's enough for me to know that neither Vegeta nor Piccolo referenced Gohan's last burst of power against Cell as it only lasted for a brief moment. The anime even further establishes this by having Gohan remember his last Kamehameha burst as the power that Goku describes that no one would be able to defeat and the power that would be Gohan's full power. However, if you have any objective evidence that says otherwise, then please present it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For the reasons, Kyo already mentioned, I'd say Vegeta was referring to Gohan's peak power (ie. Enraged Gohan).

Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.â€￾

This would imply Vegeta's at least close to catching up to what Gohan was at during the Cell Games, yet he wasn't expecting Gohan to become as weak as he did, not to mention the implied large gap between Pre-Majin Vegeta and Goku. As such, he'd need to be referring to Enraged Gohan for Piccolo's implication of only a marginal difference between Gohan and Goku/Vegeta to make sense.

 

[Dioxide]

I don't recall any implications of a "large" gap between Vegeta and Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta could tell that a large gap had opened up between him and Goku again after just a burst of Goku SS2 power.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…â€￾
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself… At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…â€￾

 

[Dioxide]

The gap between them was not specified by Vegeta. Over the years the power difference between them changed a lot. It is a statement that Goku is generally stronger than Vegeta no matter how big or small the gap. The gap between them just needs to be big enough for Vegeta to not be able to prevail in a fight against Goku but not necessitating a "large" gap.