Yamcha (22nd Budokai) vs Tao Pai Pai

Captain Cadaver

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Don't know what's even left to debate here. Yamcha was capable of at least impressing Tenshinhan moreso than he expected of the Kame Sennin school, despite Goku already low-diffing someone everyone agreed he'd at the very least have a tough time against even with 3 years of additional training from a level capable of stomping Taopaipai. Yamcha zero-diffs.

The only thing placing things in Taopaipai's favour is Tsuru Sennin's line about only believing Goku killed Taopaipai once he beat Kuririn, which would not only be saying 1 throwaway line means more than several feats and statements against it, but would also be assuming Tsuru Sennin's trail of thought on his rival's school was unbiased, something that obviously isn't so considering how many opportunities he takes to belittle it. Not only that, but you could easily argue that Taopaipai may not have been in his prime when Goku beat him considering the Daizenshuu timeline shows his lifespan as being similar to Roshi and Tsuru Sennin's, both of whom were weaker than in their prime at the time of the 22nd TB.
 

ahill1

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Don't know what's even left to debate here. Yamcha was capable of at least impressing Tenshinhan moreso than he expected of the Kame Sennin school, despite Goku already low-diffing someone everyone agreed he'd at the very least have a tough time against even with 3 years of additional training from a level capable of stomping Taopaipai. Yamcha zero-diffs.
But Tenshinhan also couldn't believe Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai even upon experiencing first hand the power of one of Kame-sen'nin's disciple (Yamcha), neither could Kame-sennin:

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Tenshinhan was even leaning towards it being some kind of dumb luck/accident:

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I still somewhat don't see how it'd make sense if Yamcha was already way above Tao Pai Pai. If Yamcha were >>> Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan wouldn't lean towards it being luck or accident, having he already fought against Yamcha and knowing Tao's strength.

What do you think?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Yamcha one shots. He's confident on winning the Budokai besides seeing Goku @Baba Tournament 3 years ago.

I think this is a similiar case to Kami using Trunks vs Cyborg Freeza as a feat besides him being trash at that point. It's more about reputation than power itself.
 

Captain Cadaver

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It's most likely that Ten was shocked someone of Taopaipai's skill and experience could be beaten by Goku, rather than it being purely power based. Ten likely overstimated Tao's abilities in that category due to him having been Ten's superior in the Tsuru Sennin school for many years as well as his idol.
 

Fantastische Hure

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As you can see by Tao's cunningness. He threw a grenade at Goku after pretending to be sorry. So shameless.
 

Void

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Yamcha wins after a tough fight.
 

ahill1

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Captain Cadaver said:
It's most likely that Ten was shocked someone of Taopaipai's skill and experience could be beaten by Goku, rather than it being purely power based. Ten likely overstimated Tao's abilities in that category due to him having been Ten's superior in the Tsuru Sennin school for many years as well as his idol.

But why couodn't they be overestimating Chapa-o as well? The way they referred to this latter makes it seem they were solely referring to his reputation as a martial artist. Heck, Yamcha even stated he didn't think someone could defeat Chapa-o so easily, whereas he should be plenty to replicate the same feats based on his fight against Tenshinhan.

Why do you assume they were overestimating Tao Pai Pai but not Chappa?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Tao is Tenshinhan's idol and a well known gangster. Chappa won one Budokai at that's about it.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Everyone said watching Goku (vs Chapa-o) that Goku improved, though so Goku (vs Chapa-o) > Goku (post-Karin-training) based on the fight and what he did in that. They saw Goku go all-out against Grand-Pa Gohan before that and still came to the conclusion that what Goku showed in this fight was more impressive. Also shows Goku's progression and that'd make little sense if Chapa-o was even lower than Tao-Pai-Pai.
 

ahill1

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Fantastische Hure said:
Everyone said watching Goku (vs Chapa-o) that Goku improved, though so Goku (vs Chapa-o) > Goku (post-Karin-training) based on the fight and what he did in that. They saw Goku go all-out against Grand-Pa Gohan before that and still came to the conclusion that what Goku showed in this fight was more impressive. Also shows Goku's progression and that'd make little sense if Chapa-o was even lower than Tao-Pai-Pai.

You don't need a high caliber fighter to show one's improvement. Goku also concluded Yamcha improved a good deal over this beating a random scrub in the preliminaries:

0114-005.png

So did that giant in the fight against Kuririn, where Goku stated the new Kuririn is way better than the one of three years ago:

0114-008.png

I doubt anyone would put those scrubs even at 21st Kuririn's level yet they served in showing both Kuririn and Yamcha's improvements.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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@Ahill King Chappa was a different case, though. He's given more attention than the random scrub, as they give him a name, a backstory of winning a Budokai without being touched and both Yamcha and Jackie agreed Goku is in trouble:
Chapter: 115, P1.2-3
Jackie Chun: “Mmm… King Chapa, eh…?”
Yamcha: “Mr. Chun…?”
Jackie Chun: “Son Goku has certainly found himself in a sticky match right from the very start…”
Yamcha: “Indeed…”
 

Fantastische Hure

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ahill1 said:
Fantastische Hure said:
Everyone said watching Goku (vs Chapa-o) that Goku improved, though so Goku (vs Chapa-o) > Goku (post-Karin-training) based on the fight and what he did in that. They saw Goku go all-out against Grand-Pa Gohan before that and still came to the conclusion that what Goku showed in this fight was more impressive. Also shows Goku's progression and that'd make little sense if Chapa-o was even lower than Tao-Pai-Pai.

You don't need a high caliber fighter to show one's improvement. Goku also concluded Yamcha improved a good deal over this beating a random scrub in the preliminaries:

0114-005.png

So did that giant in the fight against Kuririn, where Goku stated the new Kuririn is way better than the one of three years ago:

0114-008.png

I doubt anyone would put those scrubs even at 21st Kuririn's level yet they served in showing both Kuririn and Yamcha's improvements.
Even so, they concluded from Goku's performance/movements Goku now > Goku 3 years ago.
 
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