Ki blast amp discusssion thread

[GSM123]

He fought Gero and Kid Boo.

Apparently he did use it vs Kid Boo

Spoiler

And used it in that baseball episode of DBS too.

 

[Power Level Guy]

What’s the Drunken Fist multiplier?

That's a technique, not a speed increase. You'd have to go the King Chappa vs Goku's super speed hand thing route if you want.

 

[GSM123]

That's a technique, not a speed increase. You'd have to go the King Chappa vs Goku's super speed hand thing route if you want.

So by your logic Chappa should have an amp too right? Same with Tenshinhan's machinegun flurry.

The Roga Fufuken has a speed increase because it's Yamcha unleashing his full power. But in reality it's a fighting style, no different than the drunken fist. This is basically arguing that fighting karate has a power multiplier.

 

[Power Level Guy]

So by your logic Chappa should have an amp too right? Same with Tenshinhan's machinegun flurry.

It's a good question. They are using superspeed no doubt. And moving faster than they normally do.

It's a technique that has raised abilties, probably not power, maybe just speed? It might be the same as WFF.

You can consider it an amp of speed at least, all of them. It is beyond their normal ability is it not?

The Roga Fufuken has a speed increase because it's Yamcha unleashing his full power. But in reality it's a fighting style, no different than the drunken fist. This is basically arguing that fighting karate has a power multiplier.

Nah that won't work. So if Yamcha doesn't have the WFF, he somehow is the only person in DB that can't reach his full power.

Nah, that won't work.

Drunken first has no speed multiplier. King Chappa has one.

 

[GSM123]

Nah that won't work. So if Yamcha doesn't have the WFF, he somehow is the only person in DB that can't reach his full power.

But on the other hand, Yamcha is the only guy who can amp his physical attacks before Kaioken, and he’s been doing it before Ki control as even a thing.

It always striked me as a flashy thing he does when he gets serious. Start moving like a wolf and all that.

 

[SIAD]

@Power Level Guy how the hell does the Sokidan scale? We have this chain: Shen >>> Tenshinhan >> Yamcha, and somehow the Sokidan hit Shen.

At that time, Shen had not revealed even a significant part of his power. When he fights Piccolo is when he fights seriously.

Shen >>>>> Tenshinhan >= Shen (Suppressed against Yamcha) > Yamcha (Sokidan) >>> Yamcha.

 

[Dagon]

Why should Kamehameha equal Galick Gun though? Goku was using Kaio-Ken x3 to counter the Galick Gun. I tried using a theory for Kai-Ken and Kamehameha stacking together but ultimately it makes more sense that Kaio-Ken overwrites Kamehameha.

beginning of Z shows us base Goku's full power at 416, so are you taking that to heart standing ki rather than battle ki? At 416 the Kamehameha would be about 2.25x amplification against Raditz.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

You are punishing Yamcha for being better than everyone. He has an attack that is better than everyone else besides Tien, Chappa, and Jackie Chun.

It doesn’t work that way, ya damn nerfer. Give him the credit he deserves! He has multiple statements and feats proven WFF is faster than his regular power. Don’t give him a demerit here, that’s wrong.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Why should Kamehameha equal Galick Gun though? Goku was using Kaio-Ken x3 to counter the Galick Gun. I tried using a theory for Kai-Ken and Kamehameha stacking together but ultimately it makes more sense that Kaio-Ken overwrites Kamehameha.

beginning of Z shows us base Goku's full power at 416, so are you taking that to heart standing ki rather than battle ki? At 416 the Kamehameha would be about 2.25x amplification against Raditz.

Yes KK overrides Kamehameha amp. That’s why Kamehameha = Galick Gun.

Because KKx3 Kamehameha vs Galick Gun proved Galick Gun is a 1.33x amp.

Which is further backed up by Final Crash being a 1.33x boost. Which is further backed up by Final Burst Cannon being 1.33x.

Which means BBA can’t be more than 1.5x. Which means Light Grenade can’t be more than 1.5x. Which means Saiyan Saga must be significantly less than 1.5x.

There’s a huge series of chains of thought that are all interconnected that lead us to believe specific things that must be true or else the entire chain breaks.

Obviously every step must be hyper analyzed to make sure each part of the chain is strong. But this is the result.

 

[GSM123]

Why should Kamehameha equal Galick Gun though? Goku was using Kaio-Ken x3 to counter the Galick Gun. I tried using a theory for Kai-Ken and Kamehameha stacking together but ultimately it makes more sense that Kaio-Ken overwrites Kamehameha.

beginning of Z shows us base Goku's full power at 416, so are you taking that to heart standing ki rather than battle ki? At 416 the Kamehameha would be about 2.25x amplification against Raditz.

Both in the story and the Daizenshuu the Garlic Gun is said to be Vegeta’s counterpart of the Kamehameha.

@GreatSaiyaman123

You are punishing Yamcha for being better than everyone. He has an attack that is better than everyone else besides Tien, Chappa, and Jackie Chun.

It doesn’t work that way, ya damn nerfer. Give him the credit he deserves! He has multiple statements and feats proven WFF is faster than his regular power. Don’t give him a demerit here, that’s wrong.

He’s better than everyone else because he has a technique that never won a fight and doesn’t even affect the scaling of the series? It’s completely irrelevant.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

That’s cool. It makessense that Kamehameha opposes the Galick Gun perfectly.

One issue I do have is why is Vegeta surprised Goku matches him? He already saw him do a quick Kamehameha and he should know Goku has a sizable power advantage. It almost feels like…

Galick Gun = KKx3 KHH > Expected Kamehameha ~ KKx3 Goku

It feels like a bit of suggested amp is there. And then if Freeza does power up against KKx20 KHH it feels like that may leave a little room for some slight amp again as well.

Which I don’t really want to be true because I like the no KHH amp for Kaioken logic. But we have to investigate it either way.

And for your other point this is an actual GSM dogcrap level argument. Like you just argue to argue sometimes. This is a bad faith argument.

He’s better than everyone in regards to he has developed an attack that allows him to amp his physical attacks that very few others can do on their own. Yamcha’s ki control is superior to 99% of people in Dragonball. The fact he doesn’t win doesn’t change the effectiveness of his attacks. Or better said, the technique’s usefulness.

The author chooses who wins and loses, Krillen can kill almost all villains with his Kienzan + Solar Flare combo. That attack combo is superior, super useful, better than damn near everyone, yet it doesn’t get the job done. The author’s preference for how things should be done doesn’t change that. You being an experience veteran here shouldn’t need me to outline all of this for you. It’s annoying to have to continuously do so.

 

[GSM123]

But the technique is a martial arts technique, not a Ki amp technique. Why is Yamcha so surprised about the Kamehameha if he can do almost the same using his own fists? This is clearly something beyond mere numbers here. A martial artist is faster than a normie because he knows what he's doing.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But the technique is a martial arts technique, not a Ki amp technique. Why is Yamcha so surprised about the Kamehameha if he can do almost the same using his own fists? This is clearly something beyond mere numbers here. A martial artist is faster than a normie because he knows what he's doing.

Whatever may be the case WFF is faster than Yamcha. And WFF is beyond Yamcha’s full power.

Whatever way you end up rationalizing it doesn’t matter so long as it contains that fact.

And Yamcha has no deficiencies or inability to access his full power. WFF brings him BEYOND. Significantly.

Yamcha 60
WFF 70
Kamehameha 75

Something like that perhaps. But the numbers get tight really quickly.

 

[Dagon]

Both in the story and the Daizenshuu the Garlic Gun is said to be Vegeta’s counterpart of the Kamehameha.

That could just mean it operates similar as an energy bullet technique, as well as it could eventually be the same as a kamehameha in power such as in Super where it appeared equal in application.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nah, Dagon it’s meant to be a rivaling thing.

 

[GSM123]

Whatever may be the case WFF is faster than Yamcha.

But we’re discussing ki amp, not speed amp. Granted they’re meant to be even, but the point that Ki itself was hardly even a thing this early.

It’s a way of attacking/moving, a skill, like the rock-paper-scissors attack. Ki control is only for the best of the best.

That could just mean it operates similar as an energy bullet technique, as well as it could eventually be the same as a kamehameha in power such as in Super where it appeared equal in application.

That’s what it seems like in the context of Vegeta’s line, but energy waves aren’t that rare of a move.

 

[Piramid89]

@GreatSaiyaman123 I think you’re not considering that Piccolo wasn’t at full power when he charged the Makankosappo. He was missing an arm, so he couldn’t have been 100%.

 

[Dagon]

But we’re discussing ki amp, not speed amp. Granted they’re meant to be even, but the point that Ki itself was hardly even a thing this early.

It’s a way of attacking/moving, a skill, like the rock-paper-scissors attack. Ki control is only for the best of the best.



That’s what it seems like in the context of Vegeta’s line, but energy waves aren’t that rare of a move.

I think the context is he didn't know Goku could counter the Galick Gun with a similar move or at least that he didn't think Goku could match its power. He saw Goku do a small Kamehameha against Nappa so it's a bit odd that he'd be surprised in any case, probably Toriyama forgetting again.

 

[Piramid89]

Yes KK overrides Kamehameha amp. That’s why Kamehameha = Galick Gun.

Because KKx3 Kamehameha vs Galick Gun proved Galick Gun is a 1.33x amp.

I don't quite understand why that shows it. It's possible that the Garlick Ho multiplies by more than the KKH:

Goku: 8,000
KKx3: 24,000
KKx3+KKH: 24,300 x 2.25 = 54,000

Vegeta: 18,000
Garlick Ho: 18,000 x 3 = 54,000

The Garlick Ho would be a bit better of a technique at that moment, what's the problem with that?

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't quite understand why that shows it. It's possible that the Garlick Ho multiplies by more than the KKH:

Goku: 8,000
KKx3: 24,000
KKx3+KKH: 24,300 x 2.25 = 54,000

Vegeta: 18,000
Garlick Ho: 18,000 x 3 = 54,000

The Garlick Ho would be a bit better of a technique at that moment, what's the problem with that?

Because what is Vegeta’s amp against Reecome?