Was why Kaioshin surprised on the ship? Can Kaioshin and Kibito sense ki?

He saw Gohan power up to SSJ2 at the Budokai, yet still was shocked by Goku and Vegeta's base power on the ship? Or was he aware they had huge power (after the Budokai), but was surprised by their fighting ability or speed (even though in Z these things usually increase roughly proportionally)?

Or did he not sense Gohan's power at the Budokai? He never says anything about Buu's ki, right?

He definitely sensed Gohan's power, he remarked how difficult it was to restrain Gohan while on the ship. But it did seem as though he forgot about it, at least momentarily. He also told Kibito that he never got to witness Gohan's power, even though Kibito saw SSJ2 Gohan up close and personal.

Goku mentions he can't sense Spopovich's Ki and that he follows Yakon in the dark via air currents (Instead of his Ki signature), so Babidi's magic hides the power of his goons.

Kaioshin was also really stressed because the whole universe was on the line and the Saiyans kept treating it as a game, and that affects your abilities (Including Ki sensing).

I think he just overestimated Babidi’s fighters

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

Goku mentions he can't sense Spopovich's Ki and that he follows Yakon in the dark via air currents (Instead of his Ki signature), so Babidi's magic hides the power of his goons.

Kaioshin was also really stressed because the whole universe was on the line and the Saiyans kept treating it as a game, and that affects your abilities (Including Ki sensing).

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Yeh this makes a lot of sense. Although it doesn't explain why on the ship he was thinking something like "I can't believe there are people from the lower worlds stronger than me" - he should've realised that when Gohan went SSJ2, unless you think he was too distracted by trying to find Yamu/Spopovich.
Just noticed he does think "thinking about it, Gohan was so powerful back then" (I guess this is what Curtis is referring to, dunno if it means he felt the ki or just that his magic had a hard time) after Vegeta kills PuiPui (ch 450, pg5), so I guess he is aware of Gohan's Budokai ki - again though, I don't get why after he sees Goku use a powered up SSJ1 to kill Yakon he thinks the "lower worlds" thing, when he's already seen SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai.


Tbf it does seem like Kaioshin is at least worse at sensing ki than Gohan. Chap 460 page 11 Gohan says an "incredible ki" is growing (before Buu appears) and Kaioshin is like "what ki?", so maybe the distraction of looking for Yamu/Spopovich could be enough to make him not notice how strong Gohan is, if he didn't even notice what someone as strong as Gohan called an "incredible ki". Or maybe if the "back then" comment on the ship is acknowledging Gohan's ki then he didn't sense Gohan's ki properly, but it's stored in his memory (like how humans can remember visuals or sounds they didn't fully notice at the time - maybe kaioshin can remember ki later on, even if he didn't recognise it at the time).

Warmmedown said:

Tbf it does seem like Kaioshin is at least worse at sensing ki than Gohan.

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This, basically. Kaioshin often gets emotional about stuff, and you need a clear mind to sense Ki properly. He remembers sensing Gohan when Goku and Vegeta downplay Dabra and he says “Come to think of it… Gohan was really hard to hold”, as if he just forgot about it. He got too worried about Vegeta wanting to fight Pui Pui alone.

In Daima episode 4 Kaioshin somewhat implies he can't sense ki. Blueman asks how Goku knew someone was hiding, and Kaioshin says ""he" can sense an invisible sort of energy"". He doesn't say "we". He could just be answering the question super literally.

I think it’s possibly as easy a reason as AT forgot. Remember he himself called himself forgetful (even-though I don’t think he was) and in Weekly-Jump even one chapter usually is a week away, so 10 chapters is about 10 weeks away (2+ months), so maybe it’s not that surprising. Even-though it was a big event in the saga and it got rolling, so how can one forget that? I don’t know. Maybe he just wanted to make them seem like powerful villains.

Warmmedown said:

He saw Gohan power up to SSJ2 at the Budokai, yet still was shocked by Goku and Vegeta's base power on the ship? Or was he aware they had huge power (after the Budokai), but was surprised by their fighting ability or speed (even though in Z these things usually increase roughly proportionally)?

Or did he not sense Gohan's power at the Budokai? He never says anything about Buu's ki, right?

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He didn't expect anyone other than Gohan to be that strong.

Warmmedown said:

In Daima episode 4 Kaioshin somewhat implies he can't sense ki. Blueman asks how Goku knew someone was hiding, and Kaioshin says ""he" can sense an invisible sort of energy"". He doesn't say "we". He could just be answering the question super literally.

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Interesting. Anybody can confirm that?

Hi this is Wolf's neighbour Alfred, I can confirm

He forgets he sensed Gohan’s ki. Kibito and Shin probably both forgot. And yeah, that’s the best AT could come up with. Doesn’t mean it’s not true though, they forgot how strong he was.

SSJ2 said:

He definitely sensed Gohan's power, he remarked how difficult it was to restrain Gohan while on the ship.

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Ah, you need to reread that statement. He is saying, “That’s right, although I don’t know how strong Gohan is because I didn’t sense him, I remember him being very difficult to restrain. Maybe they are stronger than I thought.”

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

Kaioshin was also really stressed because the whole universe was on the line and the Saiyans kept treating it as a game, and that affects your abilities (Including Ki sensing).

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No, the author had him conveniently forget something he just did so he could push his narrative. It’s just sloppy writing.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

He remembers sensing Gohan when Goku and Vegeta downplay Dabra and he says “Come to think of it… Gohan was really hard to hold”

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He doesn’t remember sensing Gohan ever, he remembers difficulty holding him back. That’s the key piece you are missing here. It fits in with the later narrative, “Kibito you never saw how powerful Gohan is!”

Power Level Guy said:

No, the author had him conveniently forget something he just did so he could push his narrative. It’s just sloppy writing.

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The author always has people conveniently act stupid when they’re nervous. That’s his tool.

Power Level Guy said:

He doesn’t remember sensing Gohan ever, he remembers difficulty holding him back. That’s the key piece you are missing here. It fits in with the later narrative, “Kibito you never saw how powerful Gohan is!”

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That’s an awkward way of interpreting the line for the sake of covering a plot hole. Shin says Kibito missed Gohan’s power because he didn’t see Gohan fight.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

That’s an awkward way of interpreting the line for the sake of covering a plot hole. Shin says Kibito missed Gohan’s power because he didn’t see Gohan fight.

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Kibito didn't need to see him fight lol. He saw him as a Super Saiyan 2.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

The author always has people conveniently act stupid when they’re nervous. That’s his tool.

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Never like this. He literally has him and his partner sense the character and then completely forget it. Hes never been so egregious.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

That’s an awkward way of interpreting the line for the sake of covering a plot hole. Shin says Kibito missed Gohan’s power because he didn’t see Gohan fight.

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It’s the proper interpretation.

Shin doesn’t remember sensing Gohan otherwise he wouldn’t have to rely on how hard it was to restrain him.

SSJ2 Gohan >>> Dabura

SSJ2 said:

Kibito didn't need to see him fight lol. He saw him as a Super Saiyan 2.

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Apparently he did, because he missed Gohan’s incredible power.

Power Level Guy said:

Never like this. He literally has him and his partner sense the character and then completely forget it. Hes never been so egregious.

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Yeah it’s flat out irrational. That part of the saga is a wild jungle.

Power Level Guy said:

Shin doesn’t remember sensing Gohan otherwise he wouldn’t have to rely on how hard it was to restrain him.

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So whenever someone is impressed by a feat, it means they can’t sen

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

Apparently he did, because he missed Gohan’s incredible power.

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So you believe Gohan @ Dabura > Gohan @ Budokai?

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

So whenever someone is impressed by a feat, it means they can’t sen

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No, I’m saying the context of Shin’s overall dialogue proves he no longer remember senses Gohan. There’s quite a few quotes pointing towards this.

He didn't miss anything. It's a clear retcon that can't be explained.

I wouldn’t even call it a retcon, just a plain old plothole. I think I’m just being pedantic on how to use these words, though.

Personally I don’t even try to explains this, I just go with the overall vibe of the narrative. Kaioshin needs help, so he’s weaker. Gohan is objectively a SSJ vs Dabra, any implication of him being SSJ2 is bad writing.