I agree. The only issue I've ever had is I wanted to maintain the status quo of Piccolo > Gohan > Krillen. But, that is becoming less and less likely now. It seems like that's simply not going to work. Also, we usually have Kamiccolo at 2x Piccolo...I think there is no other possibility, Vegeta thought that Krillin would be helpful against someone much stronger than him which would be impossible if Krillin is like 150k and 1st Form Freeza can already tank his attacks. We have to boost Gohan and Krillin as much as possible for all this to work.
Krillen (vs 1st Form) >> Piccolo (Vs FF Form) though. Krillen is always scared, that's just his personality. They also haven't realized their strength yet. But yeah, that's a good point, Freeza isn't even powered up yet. Sheesh. That complicates things more.I don’t think Kuririn should be 300k. Look how scared he and Gohan are of Freeza even before he powers up. Kuririn >= Piccolo is also bad.
Gohan doesn't know how strong Vegeta is at this point I think...Gohan said they only might manage something against 1st form Freeza. Vegeta wanting to beat 2nd form Freeza was definitely just wishful thinking.
You're forgetting that it's about expected Freeza though.
Gohan doesn't know how strong Vegeta is at this point I think...
Well as SSJ2 said, them versus Expected Freeza may be a Nappa vs Z-Team scenario.As I said, Gohan’s line should prove Vegeta was aiming too high. Them vs 1st form would already be a close call.
Are you saying Krillen rivals Piccolo here?Come to think of it, Kuririn kept up with Piccolo and Gohan just fine when they tried to fight 4th form Freeza. Doesn’t this debunk the idea that he must be in the same league as the others to even dream of helping?
Are you saying Krillen rivals Piccolo here?
How does Gurd's flight speed keep up with the Ginyu Force and superpass Vegeta/Krillen/Gohan's flight speed?Not saying, I’m asking how he’s keeping up with them and if that changes any power relations.
Either option is fine imo. Piccolo can still be above them if you want him to be. Nail shouldn't know the exact boost Piccolo would get from Kami, so there's leeway to be creative there.I agree. The only issue I've ever had is I wanted to maintain the status quo of Piccolo > Gohan > Krillen. But, that is becoming less and less likely now. It seems like that's simply not going to work. Also, we usually have Kamiccolo at 2x Piccolo...
Nail is being used as a narrator here. Why would Nail's estimate be better than our own? I still will go with the 2x boost.Either option is fine imo. Piccolo can still be above them if you want him to be. Nail shouldn't know the exact boost Piccolo would get from Kami, so there's leeway to be creative there.
Yeah, it's interesting to think about what is the best way. I do think we have some leeway overall for sure.Nail also tells Piccolo that he's welcome to go die to 1st Form Freeza, and Piccolo agrees with him and decides to fuse. He was going to save Gohan, but he deemed himself to be too useless to help. Gohan can be stronger and it doesn't contradict anything.
That's a good narrative angle.Against 4th Form Freeza they are all so far behind him that their gaps all look the same. That's why Piccolo is doing no better.
You're welcome to do that but I think the "might" can be given some leeway. If expected Kamiccolo is 600k, that's still close enough for the statement to be valid.Nail is being used as a narrator here. Why would Nail's estimate be better than our own? I still will go with the 2x boost.
Can probably squeeze it in with Piccolo being stronger if you're forced to.Yeah, it's interesting to think about what is the best way. I do think we have some leeway overall for sure.
In which case? Pre Nail fusion vs Krillin, or weaker in regards to their placements against Freeza?That's a good narrative angle.
So Piccolo is much weaker than Krillen in comparison?
Yeah, I think 600 can work. And might be necessary to help up here.You're welcome to do that but I think the "might" can be given some leeway. If expected Kamiccolo is 600k, that's still close enough for the statement to be valid.
In regards to how they fare against Freeza.In which case? Pre Nail fusion vs Krillin, or weaker in regards to their placements against Freeza?
Here's my question..."Much" is relative. The numbers I made up have Piccolo at 41% of 4th Freeza and Krillin at 45% of expected 2nd Freeza. It's comparable. I could increase 4th Freeza and Vegeta a bit but I don't think it's completely necessary.
Indeed he was. I'm accounting for that variable.The contexts are completely different though. As you alluded to Vegeta was at the height of his delusion against 4th Freeza.
So if Vegeta had been deluded to being a Super Saiyan, he'd say Gohan and Krillen couldn't help him?As I said, I could raise 4th Form Freeza/Vegeta a bit. But a 10% difference between Krillin/Piccolo's gaps should suffice.
Not exactly. If Vegeta went into that fight assuming that he was a Super Saiyan, he never would have spoken about needing their help due to his own arrogance. But the situations are still different. Here we have Vegeta knowing the 1st Form Freeza can transform, and therefore power up significantly. Against 4th Form Freeza he was assuming that was Freeza's maximum, as he was in disbelief when Freeza showed greater ability than his initial self. So he was close enough to Freeza for his delusions to tell him that he could take Freeza solo.Indeed he was. I'm accounting for that variable.
Let's take the inverse then.
Assume Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza is filled with Super Saiyan delusions. Are you saying he could logically agree with his previous statement, that the Z-team was strong enough to help against Expected Freeza, and now because he thinks he's a Super Saiyan, pretends they are not helpful? Is this your interpretation?