Vegeta + Z-Team Vs 1st Form/FF Freeza

GSM123 · Feb 27, 2025

Considering Vegeta is already 90% of Freeza, I think 200~250k is enough to help him turn the tides.

Gohan, Piccolo and Kuririn were all one shot fodder to Nappa and got the upperhand on him multiple times.

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

You're forgetting that it's about expected Freeza though.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

The Supreme Being said:
I think there is no other possibility, Vegeta thought that Krillin would be helpful against someone much stronger than him which would be impossible if Krillin is like 150k and 1st Form Freeza can already tank his attacks. We have to boost Gohan and Krillin as much as possible for all this to work.

I agree. The only issue I've ever had is I wanted to maintain the status quo of Piccolo > Gohan > Krillen. But, that is becoming less and less likely now. It seems like that's simply not going to work. Also, we usually have Kamiccolo at 2x Piccolo...

GSM123 said:
I don’t think Kuririn should be 300k. Look how scared he and Gohan are of Freeza even before he powers up. Kuririn >= Piccolo is also bad.

Krillen (vs 1st Form) >> Piccolo (Vs FF Form) though. Krillen is always scared, that's just his personality. They also haven't realized their strength yet. But yeah, that's a good point, Freeza isn't even powered up yet. Sheesh. That complicates things more.

GSM123 said:
Gohan said they only might manage something against 1st form Freeza. Vegeta wanting to beat 2nd form Freeza was definitely just wishful thinking.

Gohan doesn't know how strong Vegeta is at this point I think...

GSM123 · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
You're forgetting that it's about expected Freeza though.

As I said, Gohan’s line should prove Vegeta was aiming too high. Them vs 1st form would already be a close call.

Power Level Guy said:
Gohan doesn't know how strong Vegeta is at this point I think...

He says it after Vegeta grapples with Freeza.

GSM123 · Feb 27, 2025

Come to think of it, Kuririn kept up with Piccolo and Gohan just fine when they tried to fight 4th form Freeza. Doesn’t this debunk the idea that he must be in the same league as the others to even dream of helping?

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

GSM123 said:
As I said, Gohan’s line should prove Vegeta was aiming too high. Them vs 1st form would already be a close call.

Well as SSJ2 said, them versus Expected Freeza may be a Nappa vs Z-Team scenario.

That comparison works really well I'd say...

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

GSM123 said:
Come to think of it, Kuririn kept up with Piccolo and Gohan just fine when they tried to fight 4th form Freeza. Doesn’t this debunk the idea that he must be in the same league as the others to even dream of helping?

Are you saying Krillen rivals Piccolo here?

GSM123 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
Are you saying Krillen rivals Piccolo here?

Not saying, I’m asking how he’s keeping up with them and if that changes any power relations.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

GSM123 said:
Not saying, I’m asking how he’s keeping up with them and if that changes any power relations.

How does Gurd's flight speed keep up with the Ginyu Force and superpass Vegeta/Krillen/Gohan's flight speed?

The author can't be expected to perfectly represent power levels in every instance here. That's an unreasonable idea.

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Against 4th Form Freeza they are all so far behind him that their gaps all look the same. That's why Piccolo is doing no better.

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
I agree. The only issue I've ever had is I wanted to maintain the status quo of Piccolo > Gohan > Krillen. But, that is becoming less and less likely now. It seems like that's simply not going to work. Also, we usually have Kamiccolo at 2x Piccolo...

Either option is fine imo. Piccolo can still be above them if you want him to be. Nail shouldn't know the exact boost Piccolo would get from Kami, so there's leeway to be creative there.

Nail also tells Piccolo that he's welcome to go die to 1st Form Freeza, and Piccolo agrees with him and decides to fuse. He was going to save Gohan, but he deemed himself to be too useless to help. Gohan can be stronger and it doesn't contradict anything.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
Either option is fine imo. Piccolo can still be above them if you want him to be. Nail shouldn't know the exact boost Piccolo would get from Kami, so there's leeway to be creative there.

Nail is being used as a narrator here. Why would Nail's estimate be better than our own? I still will go with the 2x boost.

SSJ2 said:
Nail also tells Piccolo that he's welcome to go die to 1st Form Freeza, and Piccolo agrees with him and decides to fuse. He was going to save Gohan, but he deemed himself to be too useless to help. Gohan can be stronger and it doesn't contradict anything.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about what is the best way. I do think we have some leeway overall for sure.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
Against 4th Form Freeza they are all so far behind him that their gaps all look the same. That's why Piccolo is doing no better.

That's a good narrative angle.

So Piccolo is much weaker than Krillen in comparison?

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
Nail is being used as a narrator here. Why would Nail's estimate be better than our own? I still will go with the 2x boost.

You're welcome to do that but I think the "might" can be given some leeway. If expected Kamiccolo is 600k, that's still close enough for the statement to be valid.

Power Level Guy said:
Yeah, it's interesting to think about what is the best way. I do think we have some leeway overall for sure.

Can probably squeeze it in with Piccolo being stronger if you're forced to.

Piccolo: 300
Gohan: 290
Krillin: 260

You'd have to be relying on Gohan's rage boost pretty heavily in this instance, along with Krillin's battle power still rising. But I don't think you can go lower than this.

Power Level Guy said:
That's a good narrative angle.

So Piccolo is much weaker than Krillen in comparison?

In which case? Pre Nail fusion vs Krillin, or weaker in regards to their placements against Freeza?

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
You're welcome to do that but I think the "might" can be given some leeway. If expected Kamiccolo is 600k, that's still close enough for the statement to be valid.

Yeah, I think 600 can work. And might be necessary to help up here.

SSJ2 said:
In which case? Pre Nail fusion vs Krillin, or weaker in regards to their placements against Freeza?

In regards to how they fare against Freeza.

Krillen vs 1st Form Freeza

and

Piccolo vs FF Freeza

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

"Much" is relative. The numbers I made up have Piccolo at 41% of 4th Freeza and Krillin at 45% of expected 2nd Freeza. It's comparable. I could increase 4th Freeza and Vegeta a bit but I don't think it's completely necessary.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
"Much" is relative. The numbers I made up have Piccolo at 41% of 4th Freeza and Krillin at 45% of expected 2nd Freeza. It's comparable. I could increase 4th Freeza and Vegeta a bit but I don't think it's completely necessary.

Here's my question...

If it's just Vegeta and Krillen against Expected Freeza, what does Vegeta say about Krillen's strength?

Now let's do that for FF Freeza.

If it's just Veget and Piccolo, what does he say about Piccolo's strength?

I think this is quite clear. Krillen is a helpful power whereas Piccolo is not.

Krillen (vs Expected Freeza) >> Piccolo (vs FF Freeza)

I don't think I can unsee this now. What you are suggesting is that they are equally helpful, which goes against what Vegeta is directly stating.

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

The contexts are completely different though. As you alluded to Vegeta was at the height of his delusion against 4th Freeza. It was all about him, he was the Super Saiyan and it was his show. He wasn't going to stoop down to asking for help after his arrogant show off before fighting Freeza.

Against 1st Form Freeza he seemed more rational and saw the situation for how it was.

As I said, I could raise 4th Form Freeza/Vegeta a bit. But a 10% difference between Krillin/Piccolo's gaps should suffice.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
The contexts are completely different though. As you alluded to Vegeta was at the height of his delusion against 4th Freeza.

Indeed he was. I'm accounting for that variable.

Let's take the inverse then.

Assume Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza is filled with Super Saiyan delusions. Are you saying he could logically agree with his previous statement, that the Z-team was strong enough to help against Expected Freeza, and now because he thinks he's a Super Saiyan, pretends they are not helpful? Is this your interpretation?

SSJ2 said:
As I said, I could raise 4th Form Freeza/Vegeta a bit. But a 10% difference between Krillin/Piccolo's gaps should suffice.

So if Vegeta had been deluded to being a Super Saiyan, he'd say Gohan and Krillen couldn't help him?

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
Indeed he was. I'm accounting for that variable.

Let's take the inverse then.

Assume Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza is filled with Super Saiyan delusions. Are you saying he could logically agree with his previous statement, that the Z-team was strong enough to help against Expected Freeza, and now because he thinks he's a Super Saiyan, pretends they are not helpful? Is this your interpretation?

Not exactly. If Vegeta went into that fight assuming that he was a Super Saiyan, he never would have spoken about needing their help due to his own arrogance. But the situations are still different. Here we have Vegeta knowing the 1st Form Freeza can transform, and therefore power up significantly. Against 4th Form Freeza he was assuming that was Freeza's maximum, as he was in disbelief when Freeza showed greater ability than his initial self. So he was close enough to Freeza for his delusions to tell him that he could take Freeza solo.

But anyway, we had already seen from Gohan/Krillin/Piccolo vs 4th Freeza that they wouldn't have been of any help.

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