Vegeta + Z-Team Vs 1st Form/FF Freeza

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
So he was close enough to Freeza for his delusions to tell him that he could take Freeza solo.

He always intended on fighting solo because of his Super Saiyan status. Why does this relate to their ability to help?

SSJ2 said:
But anyway, we had already seen from Gohan/Krillin/Piccolo vs 4th Freeza that they wouldn't have been of any help.

Damn, you are having a GSM moment with this one my bro.

Right now what you are saying is that Jeice wouldn't be any help to Captain Ginyu against Goku.

3 Jeice's can't beat Goku, but 1 Jeice can help Captain Ginyu vs Goku.

We are talking about team-ups, as GSM mentioned.

So even if they can't do anything as a group or individually, they can help in a team-up situation if they have an ally who rivals the enemy.

Why is this one not getting through, do you see the point now?

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
He always intended on fighting solo because of his Super Saiyan status. Why does this relate to their ability to help?

Damn, you are having a GSM moment with this one my bro.

Right now what you are saying is that Jeice wouldn't be any help to Captain Ginyu against Goku.

3 Jeice's can't beat Goku, but 1 Jeice can help Captain Ginyu vs Goku.

We are talking about team-ups, as GSM mentioned.

So even if they can't do anything as a group or individually, they can help in a team-up situation if they have an ally who rivals the enemy.

Why is this one not getting through, do you see the point now?

I'm just reading the direct quotes in the manga.

Vegeta says they will get in the way. Piccolo is acting like a beta cuck here and they all obey Vegeta without a second thought. They all just fought Freeza and understand his level, and they seem to agree with Vegeta that they aren't even capable of helping out here.

I'm obviously aware of the Jeice and Ginyu situation. That's a far different situation. We're talking about Jeice being 40k+ and Goku being suppressed to the point where taking Jeice's blast while off guard would have hurt him. Freeza is in a completely different order of magnitude to these guys. They could fire blasts at him and he could literally just ignore them and continue to fight Vegeta.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
I'm just reading the direct quotes in the manga.

Context my boy. Piccolo is talking about Gohan there, not Vegeta.

SSJ2 said:
They all just fought Freeza and understand his level, and they seem to agree with Vegeta that they aren't even capable of helping out here.

Yeah, because FF Freeza > Z-Team by more than 1st Form Freeza > Z-Team. That's our entire argument, mane.

SSJ2 said:
Freeza is in a completely different order of magnitude to these guys. They could fire blasts at him and he could literally just ignore them and continue to fight Vegeta.

Ok, but bro, we are comparing Freeza to himself! 1st Form Freeza can't ignore Krillen and Gohan. But FF Freeza can ignore them and Piccolo. Do you see?

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
Yeah, because FF Freeza > Z-Team by more than 1st Form Freeza > Z-Team. That's our entire argument, mane.

I have literally been arguing that this is the case the entire time.

Power Level Guy said:
Ok, but bro, we are comparing Freeza to himself! 1st Form Freeza can't ignore Krillen and Gohan. But FF Freeza can ignore them and Piccolo. Do you see?

I never refuted that. You're getting hung up over a difference of numbers. Krillin vs expected 2nd Form Freeza is already the absolute limit of where you can be "helpful" in a fight. If Piccolo is 10% weaker than that in comparison, he is past the limit of being helpful, and he's the strongest of the bunch. What the hell is the issue here?

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
I have literally been arguing that this is the case the entire time.

Ok. By how much?

Piccolo (vs FF Freeza) vs Krillen (vs 1st Form Freeza)? Krillen is way stronger, right? Ratio wise at least?

SSJ2 said:
I never refuted that. You're getting hung up over a difference of numbers. Krillin vs expected 2nd Form Freeza is already the absolute limit of where you can be "helpful" in a fight. If Piccolo is 10% weaker than that in comparison, he is past the limit of being helpful, and he's the strongest of the bunch. What the hell is the issue here?

Show me the numbers.

SSJ2 · Feb 27, 2025

1st Freeza: 530,000
2nd Expected: 660,000

Vegeta: 480,000
Gohan: 350,000
Krillin: 300,000

2nd Initial: 1,060,000
-Full Power: 1,500,000

Piccolo: 1,550,000

3rd Freeza: 2,200,000

4th Initial: 4,500,000

Vegeta: 4,200,000

Krillin is 45% of expected 2nd Form Freeza. Piccolo is 34% of 4th Form Freeza.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

SSJ2 said:
Krillin is 45% of expected 2nd Form Freeza. Piccolo is 34% of 4th Form Freeza.

That works. I see what you are saying.

If Krillen is at the bare minimum of helping and Piccolo is a bit below that, then it can work for sure.

I'd say don't cheap out here, make Freeza the full 700k. I think that's what he ends up being with Zarbon's boost. But that does make the numbers harder for sure...

The Supreme Being · Feb 27, 2025

Krillin: 315,000
Gohan: 325,000
Weighted Piccolo: 270,000
Unweighted Piccolo: 340,000
Vegeta: 480,000
1st Form Freeza: 530,000
Expected 2nd Form Freeza: 700,000
Initial 2nd Form Freeza: 1,060,000
Full Power 2nd Form Freeza: 1,600,000
3rd Form Freeza: 2,400,000
Initial Final Form Freeza: 4,800,000
Vegeta: 4,350,000
Piccolo: 1,700,000

@Power Level Guy I think this works for now.

Power Level Guy · Feb 27, 2025

Haha, you see how everythings changed now. Every is scrambling to boost Krillen up so they don't break their scaling system...

This is great though, I love how this issue destroys the 3 million number forever.

But yeah I think my issue right now is Krillen helpful against Expected Transformed Freeza more so than Piccolo vs FF Freeza. That's tough for me...

@The Supreme Being

GSM123 · Feb 28, 2025

I actually got 4th form Freeza vs Piccolo gap > Expected 2nd form Freeza vs Kuririn gap. Wow.

Kuririn: 250,000
Gohan: 300,000 ~ 900,000
Piccolo: 270,000 ~ 337,500
Vegeta: 450,000

Freeza: 530,000
Expected 2nd form: 700,000
True 2nd form: 1,060,000 ~ 1,325,000 ~ 1,590,000
3rd form 2,650,000

Piccolo: 1,350,000 ~ 1,687,500
Gohan: 1,000,000 ~ 2,000,000 ~ 2,500,000

“SSJ” Vegeta 5,000,000
FF Freeza 5,300,000

Kuririn is 47% of 1st form and 35% of expected 2nd.
Initial Gohan is 56% of 1st form and 42% of 2nd form.
Piccolo is 34% of 4th form and Gohan is 37%.

Hector · Feb 28, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
It's quite possible. Do you really think Vegeta thinks that though? I'm not sure he can defeat transformed Freeza, he's kind of saying, let's stop the charade.

Put it this way...

He's saying, Freeza, we as a team can beat you as you are now, go ahead and stop the charade and show us your real power. He doesn't think he will power up by much though.

So damn... Maybe you are right...

That really does make things much worse... Where does he think they can win though?

Vegeta was shocked as soon as Freeza's power started increasing, so maybe he didn't expect his power to increase at all?

Power Level Guy · Feb 28, 2025

GSM123 said:
I actually got 4th form Freeza vs Piccolo gap > Expected 2nd form Freeza vs Kuririn gap. Wow.

I think this works!

SSJ2 · Feb 28, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
I think this works!

Bro you were questioning me like you were the FBI when I have a 10% difference between Piccolo/Krillin. GSM has a 1% difference. "I think this works!"

Lol what

Power Level Guy · Feb 28, 2025

SSJ2 said:
Bro you were questioning me like you were the FBI when I have a 10% difference between Piccolo/Krillin. GSM has a 1% difference. "I think this works!"

Lol what

I thought you convinced me why I was being too strict my guy?

Didn’t you say that Krillen was at the bottom of helping range and then Piccolo being there and being the top dog could warrant such a remark?

I thought you made a good point.

haha investigating like FBI. That was more because you were saying Piccolo was useless in a team up because of his individual status and that didn’t make sense to me

Vegeta + Z-Team Vs 1st Form/FF Freeza

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