10x Boost

FeatsofPower

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Maybe Gero's absorptions boosts aren't linear/numerical based
The story implies they are. At what ratio are you suggesting? That Gero receives 10x the power for every 1 power level?

Cell not only closed the gap between him and Kamiccolo but multiplied it by just absorbing hundreds of ordinary humans, and he got a lot more of a boost from absorbing 18 than 17 despite 17 eing stronger.
19 and 20 are absorbing just ki, Cell absorbs bio-matter. It makes sense for Cell's absorptions not to be 1:1 in regards to ki.
 

Spiral-Force

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Sure, but evidence leads to a conclusion.

Dr. Gero's implications on how the humans and Piccolo's power would upgrade him make 50x a numerical impossibility.

1. Yamcha is a good source of power.

If someone only boosts you up less than half a percent, I doubt they'd say this.

2. Absorbing Piccolo, Gohan, Krillen, and Tien would allow for Dr. Gero to defeat Vegeta. This is impossible unless the humans are giving Gero a sizable boost. THe humans are below the Saiyans, so if a 50x boost was in play, it would cause major issues trying to make the humans relevant.

Numerically speaking, a 50x boost is impossible.
Gero being the foundation of your argument is problematic for two main reasons:

A) The inner workings of his absorption method are kind of a grey area, because although he absorbed ki from some of the Z Fighters, it's channelled through his mechanical energy source. So we're dealing with an energy system with undefined boundaries (excluding our knowledge that it's not an infinite energy type), and a situation that never even came into actuality (i.e. Gero not getting the chance to absorb all of them and for us to judge the resulting power-up).

B) His calculations were often proven wrong, both due to his overconfidence and lack of awareness. With that in mind, why does the 50x boost have to be what's at fault, and not Gero himself? There doesn't seem to be any merit in targeting Super Saiyan itself, while Gero saying something questionable or inaccurate falls in-line with how his character was portrayed on a regular basis.

It's also worth noting that although Gero turned out to be inferior to Piccolo and Vegeta, the extent of the difference isn't set in stone. So throwing around the term 'impossible' as if you have the blueprint to Gero's scaling seems far too assumptive.
 

FeatsofPower

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Gero is the greatest scientist in the universe. He was making artificial beings greater than Freeza left and right. He created infinite energy models. I'm sure he can do 1+1 lol

Gero is at fault, but only for powers that go far beyond what's he capable of reading. He can do basic math bruh
 

FeatsofPower

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@FeatsofPower do you think Gero is only partially right or is he 100% correct?
I need some time to think about this again. I went to far with my 50x push and it's hard to get back in.

But what I think is, Gero has to be right on his implication that he expects Vegeta to be out of range, and that he can absorb some humans to get him within range.

For this to be possible, the Super Saiyan boost cannot be 50x. Just as I've said before, it's excellent logic. I shouldn't have thrown it all away for the Super Saiyan Blue. After seeing how messy Super Saiyan Blue's logic is and the Vegeta is at 10% yet weaker than God Goku, I have to rethink my approach.

It's hard though, I overcommited to the 50x and now it's hard coming back.
 

Spiral-Force

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Gero is the greatest scientist in the universe. He was making artificial beings greater than Freeza left and right. He created infinite energy models. I'm sure he can do 1+1 lol

Gero is at fault, but only for powers that go far beyond what's he capable of reading. He can do basic math bruh
He was brilliant in his field, but his fight with Piccolo is a good example of why his word can be subject to scrutiny. Despite being backed by computational analysis, he ended up overestimating his post-absorption power and underestimating Piccolo. The focus should be on Gero rather than Super Saiyan.

It's also important to remember that Gero was no pushover despite not having his way. Piccolo admitted that Gero could've easily beaten pre-Senzu Vegeta. And Vegeta admitted that he's faster than he thought and had trouble catching him. Considering Gero's style of being covert and tactical, he doesn't need to exceed an opponent's power level to get the jump on them, as we saw with how he caught Piccolo off-guard and would've absorbed him dry if Gohan didn't come to the rescue.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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To be fair, Gero did say Vegeta never let his guard down. He was definitely planning a direct fight there.
 

FeatsofPower

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He was brilliant in his field, but his fight with Piccolo is a good example of why his word can be subject to scrutiny. Despite being backed by computational analysis, he ended up overestimating his post-absorption power and underestimating Piccolo. The focus should be on Gero rather than Super Saiyan.
It is on Gero. His miscalculations make sense. Piccolo is suppressing his power and using his full power in bursts, explaining why Gero would miscalculate Piccolo.

To be fair, Gero did say Vegeta never let his guard down. He was definitely planning a direct fight there.
Exactly. Gero knows he can't catch Vegeta off-guard, so he must be expecting his power to improve in a way where he can reasonably fight with Vegeta. A power he cannot reasonably fight with at the moment.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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1- Why would Gero's estimates override Vegeta's statement about "saiyans can't be understood just by calculations"...?

2- If Gero can't read powers that are far beyond their own, how could he know that 16 would kill them all?

3- How much superior does 20 needs to be in relation to 19 in order to make his estimates work? 19 after absorbing most of Vegeta's power still was no threat for him and got easily defeated, what difference can it make the other ones added ki?
 

Animelover5487

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2- If Gero can't read powers that are far beyond their own, how could he know that 16 would kill them all?
That was a bluff. 16 was his most loyal creation aside from maybe 19, it is obvious Gero never intended 16 to get involved unless maybe as a last resort.
 

Spiral-Force

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@GreatSaiyaman123 @FeatsofPower
Actually, Gero contemplated his options, then decided that the best form of action was to go back to the lab; he didn't like having to resort to that, but still deemed it the most logical choice. He then saw the Z Fighters in convenient spots, and then switched his focus to taking advantage of that in a sneaky way. Gero's statement about Vegeta not letting his guard down was valid, but it was in consideration of Gero's state of being at that time; if he worked his way up the ladder by absorbing them 1 by 1, then--at least from his mind--things would be different since he thinks he'd overcome Vegeta in such a situation, regardless of whichever approach to fighting that he would take if it came down to it.
It is on Gero. His miscalculations make sense. Piccolo is suppressing his power and using his full power in bursts, explaining why Gero would miscalculate Piccolo.
Yes, but speaking in absolutes about what would've happened in the hypothetical Gero vs Vegeta fight (had Gero succeeded) seems far-fetched and open for dispute. So that talking point doesn't really solve or confirm anything in regard to your take on Super Saiyan's power.
 

FeatsofPower

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@GreatSaiyaman123 @FeatsofPower
Actually, Gero contemplated his options, then decided that the best form of action was to go back to the lab; he didn't like having to resort to that, but still deemed it the most logical choice. He then saw the Z Fighters in convenient spots, and then switched his focus to taking advantage of that in a sneaky way. Gero's statement about Vegeta not letting his guard down was valid, but it was in consideration of Gero's state of being at that time; if he worked his way up the ladder by absorbing them 1 by 1, then--at least from his mind--things would be different since he thinks he'd overcome Vegeta in such a situation, regardless of whichever approach to fighting that he would take if it came down to it.
20 implies he can outright defeat Vegeta. The purpose of him absorbing more power is so he can contend with Vegeta. If his plan was to sneak up on Vegeta, he wouldn't need more power to do so.

Yes, but speaking in absolutes about what would've happened in the hypothetical Gero vs Vegeta fight (had Gero succeeded) seems far-fetched and open for dispute. So that talking point doesn't really solve or confirm anything in regard to your take on Super Saiyan's power.
You are misinterpreting my stance. Gero cannot defeat Vegeta, at all, even if he absorbs all of them.

What can happen is Gero can power up significantly enough to have a fighting chance against someone he previously couldn't. With a 50x boost, this is a numerical impossibility.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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That was a bluff. 16 was his most loyal creation aside from maybe 19, it is obvious Gero never intended 16 to get involved unless maybe as a last resort.
Didn't Gero considered 16 as a failure? also by the way he speaks doesn't seem like he is bluffing.
 
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Spiral-Force

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20 implies he can outright defeat Vegeta. The purpose of him absorbing more power is so he can contend with Vegeta. If his plan was to sneak up on Vegeta, he wouldn't need more power to do so.


You are misinterpreting my stance. Gero cannot defeat Vegeta, at all, even if he absorbs all of them.

What can happen is Gero can power up significantly enough to have a fighting chance against someone he previously couldn't. With a 50x boost, this is a numerical impossibility.
As you pointed out earlier, Gero acknowledged that Vegeta doesn't let his guard down, implying that sneaking up on him actually would require more power if he intends not to fail. Also, Gero didn't say anything was off limits once he gathers the power he needs, nor did he propose a particular fighting method he would use against Vegeta. In other words, if Gero obtained all of their energy then decided to sneak up on Vegeta, there's nothing within the source material that would make this out-of-character for him.

Gero not being able to beat Vegeta even if he absorbs all of them is an unproven claim. And there's a blatant flaw in the reasoning: that being, even if Gero was incorrect, that would simply mean that his calculations fell short and nothing more. You haven't presented any meaningful correlation between that and the 50x boost. If the narrative can't support you, then it just remains as your opinion.
 

FeatsofPower

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As you pointed out earlier, Gero acknowledged that Vegeta doesn't let his guard down, implying that sneaking up on him actually would require more power if he intends not to fail.
Because Gero never intends to sneak up on Vegeta. He intends to go head to head with him.

Also, Gero didn't say anything was off limits once he gathers the power he needs, nor did he propose a particular fighting method he would use against Vegeta. In other words, if Gero obtained all of their energy then decided to sneak up on Vegeta, there's nothing within the source material that would make this out-of-character for him.
The key issue is gathering enough energy, which makes the sneaking up issue irrelevant here.

Gero not being able to beat Vegeta even if he absorbs all of them is an unproven claim. And there's a blatant flaw in the reasoning: that being, even if Gero was incorrect, that would simply mean that his calculations fell short and nothing more. You haven't presented any meaningful correlation between that and the 50x boost. If the narrative can't support you, then it just remains as your opinion.
If Gero's claims come true, that means the 50x boost is invalidated even more.

Let's try a numerical exercise.


Android 20 = 100

What is Expected Vegeta in Android 20's Mind?
 

Spiral-Force

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Because Gero never intends to sneak up on Vegeta. He intends to go head to head with him.


The key issue is gathering enough energy, which makes the sneaking up issue irrelevant here.


If Gero's claims come true, that means the 50x boost is invalidated even more.

Let's try a numerical exercise.


Android 20 = 100

What is Expected Vegeta in Android 20's Mind?
What you've done here is form your own thought on what Gero would and wouldn't do, then tried to pass it off as a fact. You've also been pushing a strawman, considering I never claimed that Gero would specifically sneak up on Vegeta by the time he's ready for him. If that's all you got, then it won't be enough here.

Sceptical about the value that a 'numerical exercise' would hold. Story-wise, we know Gero expects that he can take Vegeta when he gets all the others' energy. That element of storytelling is to keep some tension alive. As the audience, a natural reaction to that would be "Oh, Gero might have something up his sleeve". And at the time his statement was made, there was enough mysticism to keep that suspense going. Whereas with you, it's moreso "Nah, because my power levels make this impossible!". Come on. It's an entertaining discussion, but you're going to need to bring more to the table for this to be competitive.
 

Spiral-Force

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If you're only interested in creating numbers, then I'd recommend asking someone else. I don't find it necessary.
 

FeatsofPower

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If you're only interested in creating numbers, then I'd recommend asking someone else. I don't find it necessary.
If you can't numerically represent your position, that should speak volumes about the position. Literally asking for one number.
 
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