10x Boost

[GreatSaiyaman123]

101

 

[FeatsofPower]

If it's 101, then why is Gero concerned about Vegeta?

 

[Spiral-Force]

If you can't numerically represent your position, that should speak volumes about the position. Literally asking for one number.

When the story arc itself doesn't partake in numerical power gaps, there's no inherent reason to gravitate towards them. Plucking figures out of thin air does nothing besides serving headcanon; it has no impact.

 

[FeatsofPower]

When the story arc itself doesn't partake in numerical power gaps

Oh, it does.

Plucking figures out of thin air does nothing besides serving headcanon; it has no impact

Holding positions that are numerical impossibilities is a weak position to be in.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Oh, it does.



Holding positions that are numerical impossibilities is a weak position to be in.

It appears that you've become so accustomed to your own way of thinking that nothing else matters. There isn't a single numerical figure presented for Gero or the others in the plot we're discussing, so you have nothing to draw from. The burden of proof is eternally on you.

 

[ahill1]

It appears that you've become so accustomed to your own way of thinking that nothing else matters. There isn't a single numerical figure presented for Gero or the others in the plot we're discussing, so you have nothing to draw from. The burden of proof is eternally on you.

Yeah, but we are discussing the viability of the 50x multiplier, so coming up with numbers and filling the gaps will be always relevant.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Exactly. It has nothing to do with my thinking, my preferences, and all of that stuff.

The issue is that this situation brings up an unbeatable argument for why Super Saiyan can't be 50x. And there's just no way to tackle it, therefore, it is the superior logic.

 

[Spiral-Force]

@ahill1 But when the storyline (in this case) doesn't display numerical differences he can go off of, then he has no reference point. Surely you understand that he's not conducting something that's factual; he's trying to represent his position as if it is, which is where the problem lies.

@FeatsofPower If you're claiming that something is invalid, then objective evidence needs to be shown for this to be taken as the truth. If you can't recognise that, then you're lacking an important fundamental of debating. You may be a powerscaler, but you don't come across as someone that takes debating very seriously.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@FeatsofPower If you're claiming that something is invalid, then objective evidence needs to be shown for this to be taken as the truth.

Yes and the truth shows that Gero does not feel he can deal with Vegeta, but after absorbing a few humans, thinks he can.

This shows a significant increase is warranted by absorbing the humans, which can't be possible numeriically via a 50x boost.

The 10x boost as the author indicated what he thought of when he created the series is actually much more valid.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This whole topic relies more on estimations and aproximations based on headcanon, judging Gero by instances that are not the case to prove that he is always wrong and analogies based on merely conjectures.

The most logical option will always still be: Gero would still be stomped by SSJ Vegeta even if gather all of that insignificant energy.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Exactly. It has nothing to do with my thinking, my preferences, and all of that stuff.

The issue is that this situation brings up an unbeatable argument for why Super Saiyan can't be 50x. And there's just no way to tackle it, therefore, it is the superior logic.

Didn’t you say you were going with the 10x boost because you didn’t like how strong the 50x made Gotenks?

 

[FeatsofPower]

This whole topic relies more on estimations and aproximations based on headcanon, judging Gero by instances that are not the case to prove that he is always wrong and analogies based on merely conjectures.

No, it's just based off of simple logic and simple math. There is zero headcanon involved. Merely Gero's own estimations being on display.

Gero is always right, except like 3 times.

The most logical option will always still be: Gero would still be stomped by SSJ Vegeta even if gather all of that insignificant energy.

This was never, ever, ever, the point. The point has always been about Expected Vegeta,. This is a nuanced point that you must grasp to understand the argument.

Didn’t you say you were going with the 10x boost because you didn’t like how strong the 50x made Gotenks?

I'd love a 2.5x boost for Gotenks, but there's just no evidence fusion multipliers are reduced.

My preferences generally have no affect on my positions, but there are byproducts of positions that can be favorably and unfavorable. It doesn't change the position. I'm always looking for the strongest argument.

When I can't beat an argument, I am forced to adopt it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

No, it's just based off of simple logic and simple math. There is zero headcanon involved. Merely Gero's own estimations being on display.

Gero is always right, except like 3 times

Which is why I pointed why people judge Gero by instances that are not the case to say that he is always wrong. I was actually conceding you that point. It's still headcanon because there are no numerical values given in the story and Toriyama scripted on Vegeta that saiyans can't be understand just by calculations.

This was never, ever, ever, the point. The point has always been about Expected Vegeta,. This is a nuanced point that you must grasp to understand the argument.

I highly doubt that Expected Vegeta would be a thing on a power levels list. Also Expected Vegeta is far weaker than actual Vegeta, therefore, whatever level Gero thinks it is, is wrong and can't be taken at face value.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It's still headcanon because there are no numerical values given in the story

That doesn't mean they don't exist. They do exist, there is a numerical value attached to these characters that we don't know the exact number, however, we can, through the process of elimination, figure out a general range in which these characters levels should reside.

Toriyama scripted on Vegeta that saiyans can't be understand just by calculations.

Predictions and calculations, but there is still a battle power number for Vegeta out there in the wild that we don't know.

I highly doubt that Expected Vegeta would be a thing on a power levels list.

It should be as it is necessary for understanding the power discrepancies shown in the Androids Saga, it definitely should be something that's taken into account if you are dealing with someone who is looking for precision as I am. Put it this way, with Expected Vegeta alone, I can blow up 99% of power level lists.

Also Expected Vegeta is far weaker than actual Vegeta, therefore, whatever level Gero thinks it is, is wrong and can't be taken at face value.

It was never intended to be taken at face value though, you are missing the point once again.

It's not about Gero being wrong here, it's about understanding Gero's thinking process and why he's wrong, and how he could be wrong and how even in his wrongness, the implications surrounding it lead towards many conclusions.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That doesn't mean they don't exist. They do exist, there is a numerical value attached to these characters that we don't know the exact number, however, we can, through the process of elimination, figure out a general range in which these characters levels should reside.


Predictions and calculations, but there is still a battle power number for Vegeta out there in the wild that we don't know.

If they exist, the numbers would have been given to us in the narrative or the story itself. Not even guidebooks give us that information; therefore are non-existent.

It should be as it is necessary for understanding the power discrepancies shown in the Androids Saga, it definitely should be something that's taken into account if you are dealing with someone who is looking for precision as I am. Put it this way, with Expected Vegeta alone, I can blow up 99% of power level lists.

The reasoning of 'expected' doesn't make sense. Or is 'expected' going to mean that thing A is actually better or worse than thing B?

For example: If someone believes that something could end an opponent, but ended failing, was B with less value or A was severely overrated?

It was never intended to be taken at face value though, you are missing the point once again.

It's not about Gero being wrong here, it's about understanding Gero's thinking process and why he's wrong, and how he could be wrong and how even in his wrongness, the implications surrounding it lead towards many conclusions.

Something that can't be taken at face value is worthless to take it into consideration.

So, you're basically over-thinking the possibilities of wrong thoughness?

 

[FeatsofPower]

If they exist, the numbers would have been given to us in the narrative or the story itself. Not even guidebooks give us that information; therefore are non-existent.

No, they exist,, we just don't have the numbers. Us not having the numbers has no bearing on them not existing in universe.

The reasoning of 'expected' doesn't make sense. Or is 'expected' going to mean that thing A is actually better or worse than thing B?

For example: If someone believes that something could end an opponent, but ended failing, was B with less value or A was severely overrated?

It's really about this. Gero expects Vegeta to be significantly superior to himself. But then he does some simple math and sees that the humans added to his own power will be enough to close the gap or even surpass Vegeta. We've seen that a 1.1x gap is enough to result in a complete domination. So at bare minimum, it's gotta be something like this.


Gero 90
Vegeta 100
Gero Post Humans 100

So, you're basically over-thinking the possibilities of wrong thoughness?

No, I've taken Gero's implications to the furthest extent, to which there is no answer to rebut it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

No, they exist,, we just don't have the numbers. Us not having the numbers has no bearing on them not existing in universe.

Therefore, they are not official and just fan-speculation.

It's really about this. Gero expects Vegeta to be significantly superior to himself. But then he does some simple math and sees that the humans added to his own power will be enough to close the gap or even surpass Vegeta. We've seen that a 1.1x gap is enough to result in a complete domination. So at bare minimum, it's gotta be something like this.


Gero 90
Vegeta 100
Gero Post Humans 100


No, I've taken Gero's implications to the furthest extent, to which there is no answer to rebut it.

Everything Gero knows is that Vegeta is stronger and that he can't deal with him. Something like this could work:

Gero 90
Vegeta (in Gero's mind) 90.5
Gero after absorbing 110+

Plus, the whole context is Gero thinking in other alternatives than just go to the lab, doesn't neccesarily mean he is thinking prudently.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Therefore, they are not official and just fan-speculation.

100%, most of those official numbers aren't logically consistent either, I wouldn't put too much stock into them.

Everything Gero knows is that Vegeta is stronger and that he can't deal with him. Something like this could work:

Gero 90
Vegeta (in Gero's mind) 90.5

If Gero is 99% of Vegeta, why would he need to absorb more power?

Plus, the whole context is Gero thinking in other alternatives than just go to the lab, doesn't neccesarily mean he is thinking prudently.

He stops thinking about going to the lab once he discovers he has a plan to be able to absorb Vegeta's power. Gero would love to get much stronger if he could, going back to the lab isn't a good option for him either, he would like to avoid that as well.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yes and the truth shows that Gero does not feel he can deal with Vegeta, but after absorbing a few humans, thinks he can.

This shows a significant increase is warranted by absorbing the humans, which can't be possible numeriically via a 50x boost.

The 10x boost as the author indicated what he thought of when he created the series is actually much more valid.

First of all, it's not just about absorbing the humans; Piccolo and Gohan were also on his radar, who are far more significant. Furthermore, Gero's thoughts may or may not be wrong. It's an aspect of the plot that was teased, but never materialised. To speak of the outcome with complete certainty isn't something that the manga can back you up on; it would solely be your own judgement based on feelings, which is meaningless in a debate. Instead of fixating on your own assumptions and made-up gaps, take a closer look at the story. Gero says that Yamcha is a good source of energy, so it could be that his energy absorption operates differently than how you believe it does. If something is classed as good, then it's not inconsequential. Put the others into the mix, then you get a bunch of good energies following on with that mindset. The build-up was vague enough (i.e. no numerical differences showcased) for Gero's accuracy in this situation to be a mystery. The official 50x boost can remain intact regardless of what Gero has to say. No amount of opinionated takes or personal algorithms change that.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

100%, most of those official numbers aren't logically consistent either, I wouldn't put too much stock into them.

What are you talking about here?

If Gero is 99% of Vegeta, why would he need to absorb more power?

Because he has already absorbed some of his energy and considering that he speedblitzed Vegeta (which is the only good feat he has by himself) would make him think he is far closer than what he actually is. Plus, surpassing Vegeta was his main goal as stated by himself (also as you said, Gero would love to get a lot stronger).

He stops thinking about going to the lab once he discovers he has a plan to be able to absorb Vegeta's power. Gero would love to get much stronger if he could, going back to the lab isn't a good option for him either, he would like to avoid that as well.

He didn't have a plan on absorbing Vegeta's power, he planned to absorb everyone else in order to surpass Vegeta, but he was actually taking the gamble instead of an easy solution (but is also something recognizable due to the androids not obbey him).