1st Form Freeza must be > Vegetto

[Power Level Guy]

DBS: Broly has Ikari Broly, who has a Great Ape-like power increase, stonewalls SSJG Vegeta, who was not holding back, when base Broly had only surpassed SSJ Vegeta and was utterly at the mercy of SSJG Vegeta.

So SsjG is a 10x boost?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ideally yes, but that’s impossible so the aim is for the lowest multiplier possible.

People counter this saying “Broly’s power was rising the whole time”, but I think the implication was that he was always SSJ level but slowly picked up pace and learned how to fight. It’s only when he goes Ikari that he truly powers up. We see some glimpses of Ikari eyes vs SSJ Vegeta, but I’m not sure what that means.

 

[Dagon]

So SsjG is a 10x boost?

Possibly. It needs to fit within one of two parameters:

1. Ikari Broly is initially 10x his base level, then grows to be more competitive to SSJB Goku.

2. Ikari Broly's max power is 10x his base form, including when he grew bigger and stronger.

If anything 10x is a highball for transformation SSJG.

I've seen people argue that Ikari Broly being compared to Great Ape is hyperbolic and that it just needs to be "a lot", but steel manning that logic means any time anyone is stated to have a form compared to X is hyperbolic, which makes those kinds of statements meaningless. Every power-up becomes arbitrary headcanon at that point.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's not as concrete, but there's also the U6 tournament itself. "Less than 10%" Blue Vegeta was not hugely ahead of SSJ Goku, but was worlds below SSJG Goku.

Not really though. Hit said Goku was underestimating him and goaded him into using Blue.

 

[Pyro]

Not really though. Hit said Goku was underestimating him and goaded him into using Blue.

How does that mean anything for Goku's power???

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How does that mean anything for Goku's power???

Hit was toying with SSJ Goku.

 

[Hitrule]

Back in RoF, they’re meant to be Saiyans Beyond God. SSJG replaces base and SSJB replaces SSJ. But the series backpedaled on this, so for U6 onwards base is just a few times above Pre-SSJG level.

This is just manga of course. Anime they probably kept the power up.



His logic is that 1st form Freeza being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto is bad for business.

Btw, aren’t these anime guides?

Saiyan Beyond God is Movie only.

 

[Pyro]

Hit was toying with SSJ Goku.

OK, and? My chain still makes sense with that...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Saiyan Beyond God is Movie only.

Exactly. So in the anime they made it a power up instead of a form, but the manga follows the movie so that’s why it’s confusing.

 

[Hitrule]

Exactly. So in the anime they made it a power up instead of a form, but the manga follows the movie so that’s why it’s confusing.

The Manga following the movie is a misconception "I think". And in the Anime it wasn't a power up, it was there Bases that were that strong.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Manga following the movie is a misconception "I think".

Why?

And in the Anime it wasn't a power up, it was there Bases that were that strong.

Yeah, what I meant by power up.

Out of curiosity, do you think the RoF promotional manga implies Manga Base Goku is SSJG level?

 

[Cirno777]

Ok, let's go one step at a time. How strong is Base Goku and FF Freeza at RoF?

Sorry for late reply.

Base RoF Goku/Freeza > BoG Godku

 

[Cirno777]

Btw, aren’t these anime guides?

Mostly. One source is from the Daizenshuu (which concerns the manga), and another from DB Forever (also manga).

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nice are there more guides talking about Vegetto being the strongest?

 

[Cirno777]

Nice are there more guides talking about Vegetto being the strongest?

Yes, there are anime guides for it:

Son Gokuu Densetsu:



Dragon Ball Kyogen 2:





DBZ Dragon Box Fact File 46:



Movie 12 Anime Comic:




Son Gokuu Densetsu:



Some of them are not specific about if it's base or Super Vegetto, but others are.

 

[Dagon]

Before Vegetto became SSJ, Buuhan said he wasn't going all out, so he may still be as strong as or stronger than base Vegetto.

 

[Cirno777]

Before Vegetto became SSJ, Buuhan said he wasn't going all out, so he may still be as strong as or stronger than base Vegetto.

I recall Vegetto still beating the crap out of Buuhan after he stated he would go all out.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Dagon]

@Cirno777 Thanks. If anything base Vegetto just isn't leagues ahead of Buuhan.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah, that's how I take it. Vegetto and Buuhan are still rivals, but Vegetto is a bit stronger.

So do you think these statements are including the hypothetical Gokan into it as well?

We know Vegetto definitely surpasses Gokan at BoG. But does he surpass him at the Buu Saga as well?

 

[Cirno777]

So do you think these statements are including the hypothetical Gokan into it as well?

Probably not. It can be taken to be implied in the original text with the following:

Spoiler

Chapter: 504, P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

There are other guide statements for that though, calling Goku and Vegeta the "strongest combination":

Daizenshuu 7:

Spoiler

DB Forever:

Spoiler

El Manga Legendario makes a direct comparison of Vegetto and the Potara fusion Gokuhan (or whatever you like to call him lol):

Spoiler

"Goku y Vegeta tienen una fuerza de combate muy elevada, pero tambien son muy conscientes de que son rivales. Sobre todo Vegeta, el que una vez fue el principe de los saiyanos. Esa rivalidad entre los dos sirvio para aumentar aun mas la fuerza de Vegetto. Si Goku y Gohan se hubieran fusionado, es probable que no hubieran alcanzado semejante nivel."

"Goku and Vegeta have a very high fighting strength, but they are also very aware that they are rivals. Especially Vegeta, who was once the prince of the Saiyans. This rivalry between the two served to further increase Vegetto's strength. If Goku and Gohan had merged, it is likely that they would not have reached such a level."

We know Vegetto definitely surpasses Gokan at BoG. But does he surpass him at the Buu Saga as well?

It would seem to me he does.