You can explain it as we did in the other thread, a full power KHH is dramatically more destructive than any physical attack, by orders of magnitude. It wasn't even a typical KHH either, Goku was charging it while still attacking Freeza. It doesn't look like a typical KHH to me.
I thought I had a decent one for 55%, but I think Hector's model looked really good. I sure would like to have Kamehameha > 50% Freeza, so 55% wouldn't cover that.
Hmm. I think if you can push SSJ Goku, you can def push a Spirit Bomb. The higher we go with Freeza vs the Kamehameha, the closer we run 70% Freeza and Spirit Bomb into each other. Honestly, I think the Spirit Bomb can just be like 1.1x Freeza's power. My bigger issue here is how Freeza above 50% does a Death Ball or Death Beam vs the Spirit Bomb and how it should be weaker by good measure here.
Yeah, that definitely might be an option. But I typically don't like to touch direct power statements like that. Like, it's one thing to change a power level that is nonsensical and another to change the actual story. But, it's the same logic at the end of the day. If AT wrote a nonsensical approach to how this all works, we could fix it.
So essentially if a regular ki blast had the same power as the Kamehameha, it wouldn't be as effective?
Yeah kind of. Think of a typical unnamed ki blast. It's not a sustained blast with a large diameter like a KHH has. Look at the difference of the Raditz KHH and the one against Freeza though. Against Raditz we see Goku charging his energy into a specific point. Against Freeza he's still continuing to fight as if he's not even charging up his ki. Really have to wonder if it's even possible to amplify when you're already amplified by 20x.
Roshi was able to destroy the moon in DB. I think it underscores how destructive a blast is compared to a physical attack, at least on a global scale. A physical attack might be devastating locally - eg to the fighter taking the attack, but a blast is devastating on a wider scale even if it doesn't carry the same amount of power.
I think this is it. You can bump up Freeza's full power, he's definitely significant;y closer to Goku than 90%.
Well that's just it. "It wins out" is more than enough reason for it to be favoured.
The main difference is that Freeza had a much tougher time with it and even said it was close to being a problem. To me the KHH has to be a lot closer to Freeza than it was to Raditz.
Well as I said earlier, there are different levels to attacks as you agree with. At equal levels, a KHH is still greatly superior to a small ki blast, which is superior to a punch. If Goku's trying to bring down Freeza is he best off trying to engulf him in a wide sustained blast, or by shooting an inconsequential ki blast at him?
He knew he had no chance with Kaioken x20 from the start. It was more like he had to see it for himself.
I don't think it has to be that way at all. I'm fine with seeing it that way, but as I said I think there is a reasonable way to explain it without assuming a power up was made.
Why did he have a tougher time with it?
Agreed, size and duration are factors here, even if the bigger blast is the same power level as the smaller one, being bigger helps.
Agreed. So he's expecting him to raise his ki above 50%. Or he's talking about how a suppressed power's durability may exceed someone else's full power at the same power level possibly.
You don't think Freeza powered up to take on the blast?
Because it was stronger than the one fired at Raditz, relative to their power.
He expects that he'll be able to raise his power, but his quote to me comes across as though he knows Kaioken x20 would be useless against 50%. But it was the only play he had left and he had to gamble on it and hope Freeza was lying. He didn't seem to expect the KHH to be capable of taking out Freeza by any means, he was only shocked that it did absolutely nothing.
Well I'm torn on it. I'm fine with inferring power ups without statements, but I still don't believe it's necessary in this instance for the narrative to make sense.
Not so strong he couldn't stop it's momentum in it's tracks though, right?
Yeah, I have to read through these scenes again.
Yeah, this is honestly one of the most difficult situations I feel. Not sure where to go with it.
Yeah. Raditz stopped it immediately and the blast was basically nullified. There were no signs of significant pain either. Freeza had to battle with this thing for a lengthy amount of time and exert himself to stop it. It's very competitive with him.
Kind of. It's a mix of Goku already viewing the situation as hopeless, but still not being certain on Freeza's true power.
I don't think there's a definitive way to view this one. You can make valid arguments for both.
If Raditz Kamehameha had the duration and size of Freeza's, I'm sure Raditz would look very similar.
What does it matter if he's at half power if it can't do anything though?
Yeah, I'm interested what I find when I go through the anime lines.
The Raditz blast was huge. Goku was still firing the blast while controlling it. It was like 100m long lol, yet it still exploded on impact and caused no damage.
Well Goku isn't certain that it won't do anything. He's expecting something from it but not expecting to be able to beat Freeza in any circumstance even with Kaioken x20. Maybe if Freeza was at full power, Goku would have expected the attack to be more damaging given Freeza wouldn't have had reserves. But at half power, even if the attack was stronger than him he wouldn't have died thanks to his reserves - similar to the IT KHH vs Cell.
I'd say it's more likely an effort vs power thing. It looks extremely similar to Freeza kicking back Vegeta's blast. Maybe Freeza was at 50% but wasn't going all out. I'm not sure how that would register from a ki sensing perspective, but maybe if you aren't going all out your full ki isn't being felt.
Yet still nowhere near the size of the KKx20 detonation or length either. Raditz KHH detonated instantly, the KKx20 KHH did not and was much larger.
Yeah, this is kind of where I've been wanting to explore. I think this may possibly be what he's actually bringing up. Which would change a lot of our interpretation.
Yeah, this may be a factor.
I think you are right. It really might be a reserve thing. This road makes more sense to me I think...
Yeah exactly. We see it with Freeza and we see it with Cell. I think unless a fighter is suppressed to 0 like Vegeta was with Krillin, they won’t take full damage from attacks if they have reserves. It’s more of a hit to their stamina than anything.
Yeah I do think a power up is logical to explain it, but I can’t get around the dialogue in this instance. It’s too direct.
Hmm, very interesting... Something to think about for sure.
The anime having Freeza at 1/3 power is interesting. I should be getting into the Freeza Saga in a couple weeks, so it'll be interesting to see what quotes I'm able to find.
