20x KK Goku - 50% Freeza - 20x KK/KHH gaps

SSJ2

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Considering Goku and Krillen's expectations on how the Kamehameha would fare, it seems likely there is at least some amp. I thought I could get away with no amp here, but honestly, it doesn't make sense. It makes sense that there is at least some amp. This is probably an appropriate amount.
You can explain it as we did in the other thread, a full power KHH is dramatically more destructive than any physical attack, by orders of magnitude. It wasn't even a typical KHH either, Goku was charging it while still attacking Freeza. It doesn't look like a typical KHH to me.
 

Power Level Guy

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I'd think 60% fits for the best, I doubt from 50 and 70% we will get a higher percent, specially accounting Toriyama's simple style.
I thought I had a decent one for 55%, but I think Hector's model looked really good. I sure would like to have Kamehameha > 50% Freeza, so 55% wouldn't cover that.

70% Frieza pushed SSJ Goku with a Kiai, is he unable to push the Genkidama with that?
Hmm. I think if you can push SSJ Goku, you can def push a Spirit Bomb. The higher we go with Freeza vs the Kamehameha, the closer we run 70% Freeza and Spirit Bomb into each other. Honestly, I think the Spirit Bomb can just be like 1.1x Freeza's power. My bigger issue here is how Freeza above 50% does a Death Ball or Death Beam vs the Spirit Bomb and how it should be weaker by good measure here.


70% Freeza > Spirit Bomb > Death Ball > Freeza

It's very tight, but doable with Freeza at 55%, but that has the negative effect of making 50% Freeza >> Kamehameha... This is a delicate balance we must find right here. I think Hector got it though, it's the best I've seen so far, but I still haven't completely dissected it yet.

Again, if it were me I would make Frieza says he used 80% as opposed to 70%, not my fault nor anyone else.
Yeah, that definitely might be an option. But I typically don't like to touch direct power statements like that. Like, it's one thing to change a power level that is nonsensical and another to change the actual story. But, it's the same logic at the end of the day. If AT wrote a nonsensical approach to how this all works, we could fix it.

I think it should be an absolute last resort though. We should exhaust everything to try to make it fit, even if it takes months. I'm sure we can find something we are happy with.

You can explain it as we did in the other thread, a full power KHH is dramatically more destructive than any physical attack, by orders of magnitude. It wasn't even a typical KHH either, Goku was charging it while still attacking Freeza. It doesn't look like a typical KHH to me.
So essentially if a regular ki blast had the same power as the Kamehameha, it wouldn't be as effective?

And yeah, DB doesn't make a lot of sense. A punch on Kaio's planet from SSJ3 Goku should explode like the whole afterlife. But meanwhile a 24k+ Galick Gun is more destructive than it? What gives?

The way I'm looking at it is like the ki blast essentially leaks all sorts of gasoline out into the place it goes and ignites it or something. Because it really doesn't make much sense.
 

SSJ2

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So essentially if a regular ki blast had the same power as the Kamehameha, it wouldn't be as effective?

And yeah, DB doesn't make a lot of sense. A punch on Kaio's planet from SSJ3 Goku should explode like the whole afterlife. But meanwhile a 24k+ Galick Gun is more destructive than it? What gives?

The way I'm looking at it is like the ki blast essentially leaks all sorts of gasoline out into the place it goes and ignites it or something. Because it really doesn't make much sense.
Yeah kind of. Think of a typical unnamed ki blast. It's not a sustained blast with a large diameter like a KHH has. Look at the difference of the Raditz KHH and the one against Freeza though. Against Raditz we see Goku charging his energy into a specific point. Against Freeza he's still continuing to fight as if he's not even charging up his ki. Really have to wonder if it's even possible to amplify when you're already amplified by 20x.

And yeah, DB doesn't make a lot of sense. A punch on Kaio's planet from SSJ3 Goku should explode like the whole afterlife. But meanwhile a 24k+ Galick Gun is more destructive than it? What gives?

The way I'm looking at it is like the ki blast essentially leaks all sorts of gasoline out into the place it goes and ignites it or something. Because it really doesn't make much sense.
Roshi was able to destroy the moon in DB. I think it underscores how destructive a blast is compared to a physical attack, at least on a global scale. A physical attack might be devastating locally - eg to the fighter taking the attack, but a blast is devastating on a wider scale even if it doesn't carry the same amount of power.
 

Power Level Guy

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Yeah kind of. Think of a typical unnamed ki blast. It's not a sustained blast with a large diameter like a KHH has. Look at the difference of the Raditz KHH and the one against Freeza though. Against Raditz we see Goku charging his energy into a specific point. Against Freeza he's still continuing to fight as if he's not even charging up his ki. Really have to wonder if it's even possible to amplify when you're already amplified by 20x.

But we are still talking power level, are we not? A small little nothing ki blast with a power level of 1,000 is still 1,000. And a suped-up maxed out Kamehameha that has the power level of 1,000 is still 1,000.

Now, if those two powers clash, the Kamehameha will win out due to duration and size. Not necessarily more special destructive abilities. I think the extra abilities are already accounted for in the size and duration.

That's where I'm extracting the variable here. I think Raditz vs KHH is the same as Freeza vs KHH, the only variables being that the KHH Freeza tackles is way bigger and the duration is way longer. That's what I'm reading here.

In regards to if 20x can amp... I have to look at it again, there's gotta be at least some amp to justify it being a Kamehameha don't you think? Do you think Goku can use a regular ki blast to the same effect?

Also, doesn't it suggest there is amp?

KKx20 Goku lands a shot on Freeza, but then is easily dodged, surely he knows 50% Freeza > Kamehameha?

Well, this is where I like Hector's numbers here, small, but noticeable differences.

KKx20 Goku 45
50% Freeza 50
KKx 20 KHH 55
Freeza 60

Hmm, I don't like the spacing there with KHH so close to Freeza. Let me try....


Powered Up Freeza 80
KKx20 KHH 60
50% Freeza 50
KKx20 Goku 45

I think something more like that might work. In terms of what we are actually seeing. Which is this power chain...


Powered Up Freeza >> KKx20 KHH >> 50% Freeza > KKx20 Goku

Don't you think that's the proper chain?
 

The Supreme Being

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Goku: 10,000,000
- KKx20: 200,000,000
- KKx20 KHH: 250,000,000
- Spirit Bomb: 300,000,000
- SSJ: 500,000,000

50% Freeza: 225,000,000
- Power Up vs KHH: 275,000,000
- 70%: 315,000,000
- 100%: 450,000,000
 

Power Level Guy

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Goku: 10,000,000
- KKx20: 200,000,000
- KKx20 KHH: 250,000,000
- Spirit Bomb: 300,000,000
- SSJ: 500,000,000

50% Freeza: 225,000,000
- Power Up vs KHH: 275,000,000
- 70%: 315,000,000
- 100%: 450,000,000
I think this is it. You can bump up Freeza's full power, he's definitely significant;y closer to Goku than 90%.

Let me try the math on each thing here.

Notes....

1.25x amp for Kamehameha, that's impressive. Might be a bit too much, but I like the initiative...

KKx20 Goku is 88% of 50% Freeza. I like that.

50% Freeza is 90% of Kamehameha, I like that as well. One thing I question is that doesn't it feel like Goku thinks he can determine the match with the Kamehameha? I feel like Goku is expecting to get some real damage on Freeza here, not just dust him up a bit. Not sure if we can represent that numerically with our limitations here though...

KHH is 90% of Powered Up Freeza. I don't know if I can get behind this. How can Freeza stop something so powerful in its tracks like this? If KHH rivals Freeza, I don't know if he can stop it. Now, it is trying to overwhelm him. But I feel like KHH cannot be more than say 80% of Freeza? But then you might argue how could he receive all that damage from such an inferior blast? Freeza seems to get more damage from this blast than Reecome and 18 got from their blasts from Vegeta it feels like. Might just be artistic preference here.

Powered Up Freeza is 90% of Spirit Bomb. Remember how that Death Ball got super absorbed so easily? I also don't think a Death Beam would have done anything to the Spirit Bomb either.

I think we are figuring out that Toriyama's numbers don't work here either lol. Damn!

Like SSJ can't be 50x and Freeza can't be 50% here. Damn, damn... This is bad...

We are digging into this stuff so deeply and realizing how irrational it all is. This is very tough.
 

SSJ2

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But we are still talking power level, are we not? A small little nothing ki blast with a power level of 1,000 is still 1,000. And a suped-up maxed out Kamehameha that has the power level of 1,000 is still 1,000.

Now, if those two powers clash, the Kamehameha will win out due to duration and size. Not necessarily more special destructive abilities. I think the extra abilities are already accounted for in the size and duration.
Well that's just it. "It wins out" is more than enough reason for it to be favoured.
That's where I'm extracting the variable here. I think Raditz vs KHH is the same as Freeza vs KHH, the only variables being that the KHH Freeza tackles is way bigger and the duration is way longer. That's what I'm reading here.
The main difference is that Freeza had a much tougher time with it and even said it was close to being a problem. To me the KHH has to be a lot closer to Freeza than it was to Raditz.

In regards to if 20x can amp... I have to look at it again, there's gotta be at least some amp to justify it being a Kamehameha don't you think? Do you think Goku can use a regular ki blast to the same effect?

Also, doesn't it suggest there is amp?
Well as I said earlier, there are different levels to attacks as you agree with. At equal levels, a KHH is still greatly superior to a small ki blast, which is superior to a punch. If Goku's trying to bring down Freeza is he best off trying to engulf him in a wide sustained blast, or by shooting an inconsequential ki blast at him?

KKx20 Goku lands a shot on Freeza, but then is easily dodged, surely he knows 50% Freeza > Kamehameha?
He knew he had no chance with Kaioken x20 from the start. It was more like he had to see it for himself.

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P8.1
Goku: "I ain't got no choice but to raise the K... Kaio-Ken up to twenty-fold... Though my bo... body might not be able to take it... B... but if he really is at 50 percent now, like he says he is, then there ain't nothing at all I can do..."

The context of this quote makes it sound like he isn't counting on Freeza to power up to deal with the Kaioken x20. He's saying right here, right now I'm useless against 50% Freeza. It could be as Piccolo said. Freeza's ki was so much higher that it wasn't easily quantified. It was confirmed by the results.

Powered Up Freeza >> KKx20 KHH >> 50% Freeza > KKx20 Goku
I don't think it has to be that way at all. I'm fine with seeing it that way, but as I said I think there is a reasonable way to explain it without assuming a power up was made.
 

Power Level Guy

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The main difference is that Freeza had a much tougher time with it and even said it was close to being a problem. To me the KHH has to be a lot closer to Freeza than it was to Raditz.
Why did he have a tougher time with it?

Well as I said earlier, there are different levels to attacks as you agree with. At equal levels, a KHH is still greatly superior to a small ki blast, which is superior to a punch. If Goku's trying to bring down Freeza is he best off trying to engulf him in a wide sustained blast, or by shooting an inconsequential ki blast at him?
Agreed, size and duration are factors here, even if the bigger blast is the same power level as the smaller one, being bigger helps.

The context of this quote makes it sound like he isn't counting on Freeza to power up to deal with the Kaioken x20. He's saying right here, right now I'm useless against 50% Freeza. It could be as Piccolo said. Freeza's ki was so much higher that it wasn't easily quantified. It was confirmed by the results.
Agreed. So he's expecting him to raise his ki above 50%. Or he's talking about how a suppressed power's durability may exceed someone else's full power at the same power level possibly.

I don't think it has to be that way at all. I'm fine with seeing it that way, but as I said I think there is a reasonable way to explain it without assuming a power up was made.
You don't think Freeza powered up to take on the blast?
 

SSJ2

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Why did he have a tougher time with it?
Because it was stronger than the one fired at Raditz, relative to their power.
Agreed. So he's expecting him to raise his ki above 50%. Or he's talking about how a suppressed power's durability may exceed someone else's full power at the same power level possibly.
He expects that he'll be able to raise his power, but his quote to me comes across as though he knows Kaioken x20 would be useless against 50%. But it was the only play he had left and he had to gamble on it and hope Freeza was lying. He didn't seem to expect the KHH to be capable of taking out Freeza by any means, he was only shocked that it did absolutely nothing.
You don't think Freeza powered up to take on the blast?
Well I'm torn on it. I'm fine with inferring power ups without statements, but I still don't believe it's necessary in this instance for the narrative to make sense.
 

Power Level Guy

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Because it was stronger than the one fired at Raditz, relative to their power.
Not so strong he couldn't stop it's momentum in it's tracks though, right?

He didn't seem to expect the KHH to be capable of taking out Freeza by any means, he was only shocked that it did absolutely nothing.
Yeah, I have to read through these scenes again.

So you think it's kind of like with Raditz where he didn't think it had a real chance, but he's still shocked by how little it ends up doing?

Well I'm torn on it. I'm fine with inferring power ups without statements, but I still don't believe it's necessary in this instance for the narrative to make sense.
Yeah, this is honestly one of the most difficult situations I feel. Not sure where to go with it.
 

SSJ2

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Not so strong he couldn't stop it's momentum in it's tracks though, right?
Yeah. Raditz stopped it immediately and the blast was basically nullified. There were no signs of significant pain either. Freeza had to battle with this thing for a lengthy amount of time and exert himself to stop it. It's very competitive with him.
Yeah, I have to read through these scenes again.

So you think it's kind of like with Raditz where he didn't think it had a real chance, but he's still shocked by how little it ends up doing?
Kind of. It's a mix of Goku already viewing the situation as hopeless, but still not being certain on Freeza's true power.
Yeah, this is honestly one of the most difficult situations I feel. Not sure where to go with it.
I don't think there's a definitive way to view this one. You can make valid arguments for both.
 

Power Level Guy

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Freeza had to battle with this thing for a lengthy amount of time and exert himself to stop it. It's very competitive with him.
If Raditz Kamehameha had the duration and size of Freeza's, I'm sure Raditz would look very similar.


Kind of. It's a mix of Goku already viewing the situation as hopeless, but still not being certain on Freeza's true power.
What does it matter if he's at half power if it can't do anything though?

I don't think there's a definitive way to view this one. You can make valid arguments for both.
Yeah, I'm interested what I find when I go through the anime lines.

Is it possible he's using like 1/3 of his power and the big power-up is actually to use his full 50% power?
 

SSJ2

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If Raditz Kamehameha had the duration and size of Freeza's, I'm sure Raditz would look very similar.
The Raditz blast was huge. Goku was still firing the blast while controlling it. It was like 100m long lol, yet it still exploded on impact and caused no damage.

What does it matter if he's at half power if it can't do anything though?
Well Goku isn't certain that it won't do anything. He's expecting something from it but not expecting to be able to beat Freeza in any circumstance even with Kaioken x20. Maybe if Freeza was at full power, Goku would have expected the attack to be more damaging given Freeza wouldn't have had reserves. But at half power, even if the attack was stronger than him he wouldn't have died thanks to his reserves - similar to the IT KHH vs Cell.
ah, I'm interested what I find when I go through the anime lines.

Is it possible he's using like 1/3 of his power and the big power-up is actually to use his full 50% power?
I'd say it's more likely an effort vs power thing. It looks extremely similar to Freeza kicking back Vegeta's blast. Maybe Freeza was at 50% but wasn't going all out. I'm not sure how that would register from a ki sensing perspective, but maybe if you aren't going all out your full ki isn't being felt.

But it's tricky because the manga to me sounds like Goku is speaking in present tense about it.

1740966972767.png

To me it's hard to read that and see any power up at all. "Is" is even italicized for emphasis, to show that Freeza is currently using 50%. It doesn't sound like he's gone any higher to me, even though the scene suggests he might have.
 

Power Level Guy

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The Raditz blast was huge. Goku was still firing the blast while controlling it. It was like 100m long lol, yet it still exploded on impact and caused no damage.
Yet still nowhere near the size of the KKx20 detonation or length either. Raditz KHH detonated instantly, the KKx20 KHH did not and was much larger.

Maybe if Freeza was at full power, Goku would have expected the attack to be more damaging given Freeza wouldn't have had reserves. But at half power, even if the attack was stronger than him he wouldn't have died thanks to his reserves - similar to the IT KHH vs Cell.
Yeah, this is kind of where I've been wanting to explore. I think this may possibly be what he's actually bringing up. Which would change a lot of our interpretation.

Look how Freeza bounced back from the Spirit Bomb, how well he handles the SSJ beat down. This has to be partly because of his reserves, right?

Maybe Freeza was at 50% but wasn't going all out. I'm not sure how that would register from a ki sensing perspective, but maybe if you aren't going all out your full ki isn't being felt.
Yeah, this may be a factor.

To me it's hard to read that and see any power up at all. "Is" is even italicized for emphasis, to show that Freeza is currently using 50%. It doesn't sound like he's gone any higher to me, even though the scene suggests he might have.
I think you are right. It really might be a reserve thing. This road makes more sense to me I think...

Goku confirms he is only using half. Sheesh. How?
 

SSJ2

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Yeah, this is kind of where I've been wanting to explore. I think this may possibly be what he's actually bringing up. Which would change a lot of our interpretation.

Look how Freeza bounced back from the Spirit Bomb, how well he handles the SSJ beat down. This has to be partly because of his reserves, right?
Yeah exactly. We see it with Freeza and we see it with Cell. I think unless a fighter is suppressed to 0 like Vegeta was with Krillin, they won’t take full damage from attacks if they have reserves. It’s more of a hit to their stamina than anything.

I think you are right. It really might be a reserve thing. This road makes more sense to me I think...

Goku confirms he is only using half. Sheesh. How?
Yeah I do think a power up is logical to explain it, but I can’t get around the dialogue in this instance. It’s too direct.

The confirmation could be due to misreading Freeza’s ki. We see fighters misreading higher ki all the time, usually it’s the villain though. But there is a precedent for it, and we do have Piccolo’s statement about not being able to comprehend how strong Freeza/Goku were. When Freeza goes to 50% he’s astronomically ahead of Goku, it’s probably hard to gauge exactly how much stronger he was. The blast failing to do anything at all was proof enough. Goku either took Freeza’s word based on how little the attack did, or maybe Freeza increased his effort there.
 

Power Level Guy

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Yeah exactly. We see it with Freeza and we see it with Cell. I think unless a fighter is suppressed to 0 like Vegeta was with Krillin, they won’t take full damage from attacks if they have reserves. It’s more of a hit to their stamina than anything.
Hmm, very interesting... Something to think about for sure.

Yeah I do think a power up is logical to explain it, but I can’t get around the dialogue in this instance. It’s too direct.

The confirmation could be due to misreading Freeza’s ki. We see fighters misreading higher ki all the time, usually it’s the villain though. But there is a precedent for it, and we do have Piccolo’s statement about not being able to comprehend how strong Freeza/Goku were. When Freeza goes to 50% he’s astronomically ahead of Goku, it’s probably hard to gauge exactly how much stronger he was. The blast failing to do anything at all was proof enough. Goku either took Freeza’s word based on how little the attack did, or maybe Freeza increased his effort there.
The anime having Freeza at 1/3 power is interesting. I should be getting into the Freeza Saga in a couple weeks, so it'll be interesting to see what quotes I'm able to find.
 

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