21st Jackie vs Goku

[SSJ2]

After rereading this, I really think Goku has a substantial advantage over Jackie. It was stated multiple times that Goku had the upper hand, and Goku was generally outdoing everything Jackie did. Jackie was forced to use hypnosis, as well as the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho to try to beat Goku, both are last resort attacks. Goku never was in such a situation. He always seemed one step ahead, perhaps not two steps ahead like Cell was versus Goku. I think Goku being something like 1.1x Jackie makes sense here.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Since Master-Roshi doesn't say that Goku surpassed him after he saw how strong he got after the tournament, I think they might be even. But Goku was just out-fighting him, and surprising him with his techniques.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, Roshi basically admitted inferiority at one point, as the announcer was going on about how Goku had a big advantage, and Roshi got mad because he agreed.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well, Roshi basically admitted inferiority at one point, as the announcer was going on about how Goku had a big advantage, and Roshi got mad because he agreed.

What did he exactly say again?

To me it seemed like they were even, it was just Goku's fighting (& maybe his style & skill) and his toughness and all that surprised Master-Roshi.

 

[SSJ2]

Announcer: "No one gave the youngster a chance when he stepped into the strongest under the heavens tournament!! But not only has he battled heroically to the final match, now he's gained the upper hand against the older, bigger, more experienced Jackie Chun!!!"

Jackie: "Okay, okay! I get the stupid idea!!"


Jackie then says that he'll gain the upper hand, and fails to hit Goku even once. It's right after that in which he uses the hypnosis technique and the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Announcer: "No one gave the youngster a chance when he stepped into the strongest under the heavens tournament!! But not only has he battled heroically to the final match, now he's gained the upper hand against the older, bigger, more experienced Jackie Chun!!!"

Jackie: "Okay, okay! I get the stupid idea!!"


Jackie then says that he'll gain the upper hand, and fails to hit Goku even once. It's right after that in which he uses the hypnosis technique and the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho.

Well yeah, the announcer said Goku had the upper-hand, but that's I think more because of his skill and toughness, which surprised Master-Roshi and since they were even (in my opinion) toughness and skill can play a huge part in how the fight goes.

At-least that's what I think.

 

[SSJ2]

If Roshi was stronger would his blows not have done more damage to Goku? You can say Goku is tougher and whatnot, but he outright trolled Roshi throughout the entire match. If you look closely at the facial expressions, Goku is always smiling, laughing, etc, while Roshi is frustrated due to his inability to do anything. At even powers I don't see how you could toy with your opponent like Goku was able to.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

If Roshi was stronger would his blows not have done more damage to Goku? You can say Goku is tougher and whatnot, but he outright trolled Roshi throughout the entire match. If you look closely at the facial expressions, Goku is always smiling, laughing, etc, while Roshi is frustrated due to his inability to do anything. At even powers I don't see how you could toy with your opponent like Goku was able to.

I don't think Goku was toying. He was just having a good fight, which he always likes. Master-Roshu was getting frustrated, because Goku is his student and he is keeping-up with him, where-as he thought he'd have an easier time with him. Even at the beginning he thought he had won straight-away, when he kicked Goku almost out of the ring but the fight went on for a lot longer.

 

[SSJ2]

I dunno man. The very early stages of the fight look more even, but it looked more like they were just feeling each other out. Roshi was going for the win, but Goku never tried to do the same. Go to chpter 48. From there on, just pay close attention to the bulk of the fight. Facial expressions are very important here imo. Roshi gets the upper hand on one exchange, kicking Goku into the wall. Goku gets up, saying he wasn't even hurt at all which Roshi could not even fathom. Goku then uses a triple after image and gets the best of Roshi, all while he's laughing his ass off. Roshi gets the upper hand with the drnk technique, but that is not a technique relying on power. Chapter 49 is extremely important here. Roshi literally couldn't hit Goku once, while Goku was pounding him around while trolling. Roshi then resorts to his two trump cards, which again don't rely on power.

Roshi needed moves that require skill but no power to use. That was the only way he was going to beat Goku.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I dunno man. The very early stages of the fight look more even, but it looked more like they were just feeling each other out. Roshi was going for the win, but Goku never tried to do the same. Go to chpter 48. From there on, just pay close attention to the bulk of the fight. Facial expressions are very important here imo. Roshi gets the upper hand on one exchange, kicking Goku into the wall. Goku gets up, saying he wasn't even hurt at all which Roshi could not even fathom. Goku then uses a triple after image and gets the best of Roshi, all while he's laughing his ass off. Roshi gets the upper hand with the drnk technique, but that is not a technique relying on power. Chapter 49 is extremely important here. Roshi literally couldn't hit Goku once, while Goku was pounding him around while trolling. Roshi then resorts to his two trump cards, which again don't rely on power.

Roshi needed moves that require skill but no power to use. That was the only way he was going to beat Goku.

I haven't read the manga. k k k

But I'm just going-off on how it was portrayed in the anime, or at-least how it came-off to me. To me it didn't seem like Goku was higher, but he was just frustrating Master-Roshi because of how much trouble he gave him and he didn't expect that.

 

[SSJ2]

http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/1.html

Just read this and one more chapter, it is Viz.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/1.html

Just read this and one more chapter, it is Viz.

I can't right-now, but to me never at any point when I was watching the fight did it seem to me like one was higher than the other, but that's my opinion on it. I could see how you think what you think, though.

 

[sei'taer]

It's pretty much implied to me from the first kamehameha clash to the finale that they're pretty much even.

Goku just catches him off guard with inventive attacks. But the exchanges between the double and triple illusion moves, and the drunken and mad dog attacks are even.

After roshi destroys the moon and goku reverts to human it's clear goku actually had more power left given the size of their kamehameha's. Yet roshi still wins by having longer legs and more mass.

 

[ahill1]

I'd say Goku is a tad bit stronger, but 1.1x is too much IMO... this is Cell vs Goku type of gap. They seemed to have differents goals in the fight: Goku was basically wanting to fight to have fun, while Jackie Chun wanted at all costs win the tournament and shows to his students there will be always someone stronger than you in the world, hence why Goku was smiling and Jackie was with a face of struggle. I'd say Goku is smiling simply because it's exciting to him fight someone all that strong and not because he was without any effort or something like this. And the fight was pretty much fun, was not like with Piccolo Junior (where he had to protect the world) or with Tenshinhan (given what he did to Yamcha) - he had nothing against Jackie Chun.

Son Goku - 150
Jackie Chun - 148

I could have Roshi at 145, making him at 96% of Goku, but I'd not lower than that. But I prefer Roshi being 98% of Goku and Namu being 96% of Son Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

Lol what? You think Goku vs Cell was a 98% gap? That's retarded.

 

[Zippy]

1.1 is a cell and goku gap

 

[SSJ2]

I think 1.1x is too tight for Goku vs Cell personally.

 

[sei'taer]

Yeah reading that you get the impression (even from goku himself) that he's putting on his super A game just to keep up.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, and he was stated to be not one, but two steps behind Cell. Being one step behind is bad enough imo.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

1 step behind = 1.1x difference

2 steps behind = 1.2x difference