22nd Budokai Tenshinhan > 23rd Budokai Yamcha

[ahill1]

Do you think that idea is laughable or possible?

 

[SSJ2]

Can you imagine Piccolo praising someone on 22nd Tenshinhan's level, as he did with Krillin? Laughable idea.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yamcha wouldn't even bother participating if he knew himself not to be a match for a Tenshinhan from 3 years ago, not to mention being far above Chaozu who was deemed as someone Roshi couldn't keep up with. Even without factoring in Kami's praise, the idea's laughable.

 

[ahill1]

Can you imagine Piccolo praising someone on 22nd Tenshinhan's level, as he did with Krillin? Laughable idea.

Well, Yamcha is an ant to Piccolo Junior anyway. If a 100 level opponent can praise a 5 level opponent, why can't he praise a 2?

@Captain Cadaver

Well, is entering the Budokai a prerequisite to being above past levels? Kuririn entered the 25th Budokai while he knew he had no chance.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]ahill1[/mention] Kuririn entered the 25th for the prize money, and before the 25th there was only prize money for the first place.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, Yamcha is an ant to Piccolo Junior anyway. If a 100 level opponent can praise a 5 level opponent, why can't he praise a 2?

It's not merely praise. It's the fact that he thought the likes of Krillin could make his plans for world domination more difficult. This would be an idiotic thing to say about someone who got one shotted by Drum.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Thanks to BoZ, a lot of people believe that unfortunately.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Thanks to BoZ, a lot of people believe that unfortunately.

Less so the BoZ and more so V-Jump's attempt at attributing numbers to Part 1 characters.

 

[ahill1]

It's not merely praise. It's the fact that he thought the likes of Krillin could make his plans for world domination more difficult. This would be an idiotic thing to say about someone who got one shotted by Drum.

Well, I think he thought basically "if not even the main player (Kuririn) is already that strong, imagine the heavy hitters", basically.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's exactly what he meant @ahill1, after all Kuririn is fodder to him. Thing is, 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan wouldn't be considered "strong" by any means. Piccolo saw this power as trash even before being rejuvenated.

 

[ahill1]

That's exactly what he meant @ahill1, after all Kuririn is fodder to him. Thing is, 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan wouldn't be considered "strong" by any means. Piccolo saw this power as trash even before being rejuvenated.

What is considered strong or not is subjective. Piccolo didn't see Tenshinhan as a threat beforehand because he didn't think anybody else would scale up from Tenshinhan. Here with Kuririn, he knows he's far from the strongest and is already displaying such power. Later on Piccolo stated not even hundreds of them (Kami and Tenshinhan included [who are on their own right ways above prime Daimao]) would be worth shit if ganging up on him... so you think he REALLY thinks high of ppl like Yamcha? His statement is within the context of the heavyhitters supposedly being way stronger than Kuririn. And it isn't like that was that worth of an acknowledgement either... he merely said the tournament may look tougher than he thought... which can be interpreted as him having to exert a little more than he thought, but no big deal.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, I think he thought basically "if not even the main player (Kuririn) is already that strong, imagine the heavy hitters", basically.

But this would be completely redundant when Piccolo Daimao already knew that Goku was exponentially above 22nd Tenshinhan's level. There's no reason to comment on Krillin's power unless it's also exponentially above that level.

 

[ahill1]

But this would be completely redundant when Piccolo Daimao already knew that Goku was exponentially above 22nd Tenshinhan's level. There's no reason to comment on Krillin's power unless it's also exponentially above that level.

Well, he knew that Goku was above that level... not Kuririn. Piccolo probably didn't expect for other strong foes besides Goku and Tenshinhan. The little respect he pays Kuririn sounds more like him acknowledging that the ones worth a damn can be more of a nuisance than he thought.

Idk, I just think it's kinda vague. Kuririn would be an ant to him even if he were somewhat close to prime Daimao or below Drum. I don't necessarily think someone has to meet a standard of at least >>> Drum to warrant a compliment from Piccolo Junior. Could be tho.

 

[SSJ2]

It's honestly an absurd idea. Go and read the context of the fight.

Spoiler

Spoiler

When did Piccolo Daimao have to go to such lengths against Tenshinhan? His henchman was more than good enough to dominate Tenshinhan and was about to kill him with no effort. Even Old Piccolo Daimao could have one shotted Tenshinhan if he was serious as he did with post-Tambourine Goku.

Even after Piccolo Jr claimed he was going to reveal his true power, Krillin still managed to hang in there and somewhat keep up with him. Piccolo was in complete shock that Krillin managed to survive his final attack. It's pure insanity to argue that he's only on 22nd Tenshinhan's level.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo Junior also didn't seem to expect high of Kuririn, which is why he was surprised even by Kuririn's Bukujutsu, which he highlighted. The first thing Tenshinhan did when confronting young Daimao was show he was able to fly, so he likely expected higher from Tenshinhan there.

Kuririn was able to draw more power from Piccolo Junior, while young Daimao had Drum taking care of Tenshinhan by himself... but what if suppressed Piccolo Junior is less capable than Drum? Piccolo Daimao had already seen how two of his offsprings were taken out by little Goku before, so he likely had Drum not taking chances by beating up Tenshinhan.

 

[SSJ2]

I know you're playing devil's advocate, but I'll continue.

In the image I posted directly above, Piccolo says he was not surprised by Bukujutsu, he was surprised by Krillin's abilities.

Why would Krillin be excited about attending the Budokai if he wasn't even above Tenshinhan's level from 3 years ago? Krillin is a competitive guy and wouldn't show up just to get one shotted. He was confident in the gains that he made, and for that matter, so was Roshi:

Chapter: 166, P10.1
Tenshinhan: “Lord Muten Roshi, are you not going to be entering this time?”
Kame-sennin: “I’m gonna give it a pass. I’m no longer any match for you guys.”

Roshi was in fact a match for 22nd Tenshinhan, albeit both were suppressed - but this statement is telling. Roshi knew that he would get embarrassed at this level, but Krillin obviously thought otherwise about his own power. In the Japanese version Piccolo even apologized for calling Krillin a small fry.

Chapter: 171, P12.5, P13.1-2
Piccolo: “Frankly, I’m surprised…Not by your Bukujutsu, but by your technique and movement…And your toughness…To apologize for calling you a small fry, I’ll show you just a little bit…”
Kuririn: “What? What will you show me?!”
Piccolo: “The true power of the great Ma Junior…”


There's just no way in hell that 22nd Tenshinhan is going to get this type of recognition. 22nd Tenshinhan was a such a small fry that Piccolo Daimao didn't even need to get his hands dirty.




And if Piccolo was suppressed to below Drum's level, his statement about world domination becoming more difficult would make zero sense. Why would he be second guessing anything if he was showing a level of power far weaker than his predecessor's?

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo Junior didn't express surprise at Kuririn's Bukujutsu in his quote, but for a moment he seemed quite shocked when Kuririn used that to stop himself from falling out. Compare that with Piccolo Daimao's reaction to Tenshinhan using Bukujutsu to fly from the airplane... he seems way less surprised in comparison. So it could be argued that Piccolo Daimao is less easily impressionable, maybe due to having direct contact with powerful masters beforehand, while Piccolo Junior could only access that by memories.

And in regards to Kuririn making his world conquest rougher, I have addressed that... Kuririn wasn't even on his father's memories of the earthlings that stood up to him. In fact, when Goku and Tenshinhan were about to fight, he even referred to them as "his foes", using that as an opportunity to learn about them. A no name fighter suddenly standing up to him is prone to get that reaction.

Kuririn could be slightly stronger than the 22nd finalists... this topic was about Yamcha. Plus, Kuririn entered in the 25th Budokai. Sure, money played a role into it, but with Piccolo competing, Kuririn knew he wouldn't make it into the top 5 (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, #18)... yet he still attended even after knowing that.

 

[SSJ2]

Well yes, I'm not denying that he wasn't surprised by the Bukujustsu, but he made it extremely clear that the true surprise was Krillin's abilities/speed/toughness. The contexts are completely different in this comparison. Piccolo Daimao thought Tenshinhan was an ordinary human being and was merely surprised that he had some martial arts skill. Piccolo Jr was surprised not only by the fact that Krillin could fly, but the fact that he was able to take multiple hits and hold his own against Piccolo - hence the statement where he literally states the Bukujutsu wasn't the reason for his surprise.

But what do his father's memories have to do with anything? The subject at hand is how Piccolo viewed Krillin. Krillin went from being viewed as a "nothing" to "better than expected" to Piccolo being surprised by his speed/toughness/abilities, and then once again shocked by the fact that Krillin could stand up after his powered up attack.

Spoiler

This shock was after Piccolo had been shocked multiple times. Piccolo had been taking hits from Krillin and should have had a good idea of how powerful he was, yet he still was in complete disbelief. His father's memories should have told him that it's possible for humans to have reached this level (Mutaito, Prime Roshi/Tsuru, 22nd Tenshinhan), so it shouldn't have been that shocking after already having experienced the peak of human power. None if this makes sense if Krillin is below those guys - especially considering we have no reason to believe that Piccolo was holding back by such a substantial amount.

And yes, Piccolo did view Goku/Tenshinhan as his true foes. He knew they were more powerful than Krillin after seeing Tenshinhan beat Tao Pai Pai, where Krillin/Yamcha admitted inferiority.

Since Piccolo had already beaten Krillin, it makes sense that he'd want to get a better look at the more powerful foes. None of that takes away from Krillin.

Spoiler

I'm aware this topic is about Yamcha. We're given no reason to believe that the status quo from the 22nd Budokai changed much at all. Yamcha and Krillin both received the same training from Karin and then finished up their training on their own. There would be a small difference between them at best.

 

[ahill1]

Well yes, I'm not denying that he wasn't surprised by the Bukujustsu, but he made it extremely clear that the true surprise was Krillin's abilities/speed/toughness. The contexts are completely different in this comparison. Piccolo Daimao thought Tenshinhan was an ordinary human being and was merely surprised that he had some martial arts skill. Piccolo Jr was surprised not only by the fact that Krillin could fly, but the fact that he was able to take multiple hits and hold his own against Piccolo - hence the statement where he literally states the Bukujutsu wasn't the reason for his surprise.

But what do his father's memories have to do with anything? The subject at hand is how Piccolo viewed Krillin. Krillin went from being viewed as a "nothing" to "better than expected" to Piccolo being surprised by his speed/toughness/abilities, and then once again shocked by the fact that Krillin could stand up after his powered up attack.

Piccolo's quote means that Kuririn's quick moves and toughness stood up more than Kuririn's Bukujutsu. What I was saying is that for a moment Piccolo Junior seemed more impressed by the Bukujutsu usage than his father was when seeing Tenshinhan employing the same move... which could point out to Piccolo Daimao being less prone to reactions generally, or to him expecting more from Tenshinhan from the get-go.

This shock was after Piccolo had been shocked multiple times. Piccolo had been taking hits from Krillin and should have had a good idea of how powerful he was, yet he still was in complete disbelief. His father's memories should have told him that it's possible for humans to have reached this level (Mutaito, Prime Roshi/Tsuru, 22nd Tenshinhan), so it shouldn't have been that shocking after already having experienced the peak of human power. None if this makes sense if Krillin is below those guys - especially considering we have no reason to believe that Piccolo was holding back by such a substantial amount.

Piccolo has also memories from Goku... so if we want to gauge Piccolo's reaction as meaning Kuririn surpassed his past experiences... is Kuririn above [post Choshinsui] Goku too?

And yes, Piccolo did view Goku/Tenshinhan as his true foes. He knew they were more powerful than Krillin after seeing Tenshinhan beat Tao Pai Pai, where Krillin/Yamcha admitted inferiority.

Or he knew that since Tenshinhan was the one who stood up to him together with Goku. Or because Kuririn didn't display such amazing powers in comparison to Tenshinhan 3 years ago... *shrugs*.

Also, Kuririn pretty much admitted inferiority to Tenshinhan once he saw how easily he disposed of Cyborg Tao... so would Piccolo really show such amazement at Kuririn knowing Ten already showed prowess >> that?

I'm aware this topic is about Yamcha. We're given no reason to believe that the status quo from the 22nd Budokai changed much at all. Yamcha and Krillin both received the same training from Karin and then finished up their training on their own. There would be a small difference between them at best.

There's a sizeable difference between them according to the BoZ numbers (177 vs 206). And Kuririn seemed more impressive against Piccolo Junior too. But if Tenshinhan is < 22nd Tenshinhan, Kuririn can't be much above that, yeah.

 

[ahill1]

Now that I've re-watched the 23rd Budokai I feel foolish to have even suggested that.