23rd Budokai Discussion

[p123]

And SSJ2, they are coming out great man! I just finished up the Son Goku and Friends Arc, working on 21st Budokai now. I gotta get a level for Bacterian and I think I'll be good. This shit is time consuming!

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

P, please correct your mistakes on Base Gotenks and the SSJ Kids before posting the videos. Let's not spread Piccolo > Base Gotenks over the community.

 

[p123]

Yea, I'm not sure how to go about that. That is indeed a tough situation. The manga shows us...

Base Gotenks >> Super Saiyan Kids > Piccolo

But numerically, it makes it very difficult. I'm trying to keep Goku within range of Gotenks. I'm trying to keep a 10x gap or so. Which is impossible if you have Base Gotenks > Super Saiyan Kids...

Basically, the multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 determine how strong Base Gotenks is supposed to be. The Super Saiyan Kids are somewhere around the adults power and then Super Saiyan Gotenks is around Super Saiyan 3 Goku's power. So it's quite easy to see what the Super Saiyan 2/3 boosts should be, based on Gotenks.

But when the 2/3 multipliers get crazy, it makes Gotenks a god compared to Goku. I guess there is no choice, I will have to go with the manga here, huh?

Base Gotenks Post > Super Saiyan Gotenks Pre, is nonsense, but Base Gotenks Pre > Super Saiyan Kids is legit. Damn...

 

[SSJ2]

And SSJ2, they are coming out great man! I just finished up the Son Goku and Friends Arc, working on 21st Budokai now. I gotta get a level for Bacterian and I think I'll be good. This shit is time consuming!

I'll check them out.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Post > SSJ Pre is as legit as Base Pre SSJ Kids. If you're having issues then fuck the 50x. Do you really think Toriyama was thinking "Ok, so now Gotenks will he this many times stronger"? Hell no, he was like "Gotenks is strong, and now he will be even stronger!"

 

[p123]

Yea, but that opens up another can of worms. If 50x is irrelevant, then what? Kaioken being stronger than Super Saiyan? How big is the boost for Gotenks? How can they predict how strong his Super Saiyan will be if his multiplier has changed? This becomes a major problem.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioken being stronger than Super Saiyan wouldn't mean much as that's a Gotenks only issue.

I try to don't look too deep into it when thinking about the multiplier changes. I see the numbers as just a way to explain the power scaling, so the story's logic clearly takes more value than a fix multiplier.

 

[p123]

As I said, that messes up the logic as well. They all look at Super Saiyan as a specific boost. How can they make their predictions if the boost changes and no one make note of it? Oh wow, Gotenks, your power is amazing, but your Super Saiyan power should be far stronger. Or something like that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo when he sees SSJ Gotenks isn't nearly as excited as he was when he saw Base Gotenks, so there is that.

But ignoring several implications because of the lack of one odd statement is quite fallacious either way.

 

[p123]

Yea, I noticed that too. Base Gotenks gets a shit ton of fanfare. Also, even the failed fusions seem to blind them. When a fusion combines I think it just displays tons of light.

The safest option here is to make Base Gotenks a weak piece of shit. To keep peace and harmony for the rest of the series. That's why I chose to go with that.

Everything Base Gotenks touches doesn't make sense. It's better off to think he's a pure gag character and not take anything as a feat or actual statement in my opinion.

All that's needed with Gotenks is this...

Super Saiyan Gotenks ~ Super Saiyan 3 Goku

and that Gotenks hugely powers up in the RoSaT. Everything else is irrelevant and series destroying.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Oh, the good and old "Gag" argument. I can live with that.

I think SSJ Gotenks is more like >/>> than a >=/= Goku. Goku is closer to Boo than he is to Gotenks IMO.

 

[p123]

Pre Rosat? I don't think so...

Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Holding Back) = Can't beat Buu

Super Saiyan Gotenks = Can beat Buu ~ Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Going all Out)

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think Goku was holding back though... At least not his power. I think Goku would've killed Boo with a souped up Kamehameha. Gotenks on the other hand could've killed Boo with a very limited set of skills and knowledge.

 

[p123]

Goku was definitely holding back, Piccolo even asks if he thinks Goku could have won if he had gone all out.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I know, but i don't think he was suppressing. More like an effort thing IMO. I find doubtful Goku could suppress such a new and strainful form.

 

[p123]

Exactly. He's not necessarily suppressing it down, but he's not giving off his true ability either. The fact that Piccolo know that he's not going all out and suspects he can defeat Buu if he did speaks volumes.

All in all, I will go off of what his effort shows...

Super Saiyan Gotenks >= Super Saiyan 3 Goku (All Out) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku (v Buu) >= Majin Buu

That's what the story shows.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Goku was definitely holding back, Piccolo even asks if he thinks Goku could have won if he had gone all out.

I think he means he could have won if the fight had continued.

 

[p123]

Quote?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Quote?

This is what i make of the context. There was no such thing as suppression in an unmastered new form and
Goku's facial expressions showed he was not holding back.

 

[p123]

If he wasn't going all out, he was holding back bud...