50% Goku > Warm-Up Goku = Base Cell

[Power Level Guy]

When Goku goes to visit Cell, their energies are read. Krillen, Roshi, and Yamcha all are talking about their power, they seem to conclude the following.

Resting SSJ Goku = Base Perfect Cell

We already knew this because Warm Up Goku fought Cell without powering up, he had to power up to reach his 50% power.

50% Goku > RSSJ Goku = Base Cell >> Super Vegeta

Also, 50% Goku gotta be way stronger than Buff Cell and Grade 3 Trunks. It's so crystal clear when you watch the anime. 50% Goku is straight up other worldly.

And Resting SSJ Goku is stronger than everyone except the Buff powers, he equals Cell who no one else could match.

It's nice to see when the anime really confirms a lot of things.

 

[Hector]

According to the author of Bringer of Death, Resting Goku was below Super Vegeta, because it was only after Goku powered up that Vegeta said Kakarrot surpassed him.

 

[SIAD]

Exact. I like to think that this version of Goku MSSJ (Relaxed) is Goku SSJ (M8).

When Vegeta ASSJ hits Broly RSSJ and the latter does not suffer any pain, Goku becomes excited to face him. I think Broly RSSJ is a little stronger than Perfect Cell (Suppressed against Vegeta and Future Trunks) and than Goku MSSJ (Relaxed) and Goku SSJ (M8).

 

[Dagon]

Isn't it quite odd that:

Despite supposedly being more powerful than Grade III Trunks, no one draws a comparison between 50% Goku and Trunks.

Despite being even more powerful than Cell's power used vs Trunks, no one draws a comparison between 50% Goku and that level of Cell.

Cell never tells anyone how much power he has left to show, or even that he has a lot more power to show generally. He just says he wants to test the power of his perfect form without giving anything to quantify.

I think people take Korin's "Cell hasn't shown his full power yet" as license to pump up the scale to whatever degree.

Hypothetically, imagine Korin never said that. Then how would you scale it?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Exact. I like to think that this version of Goku MSSJ (Relaxed) is Goku SSJ (M8).

Yeah, I know Ducas pushes that version but the issue with that is that Goku and Gohan's power is relative to Super Vegeta. Put it this way, if Goku was that strong, Gohan would be right behind him, well above Vegeta. Vegeta rivals Goku.

According to the author of Bringer of Death, Resting Goku was below Super Vegeta, because it was only after Goku powered up that Vegeta said Kakarrot surpassed him.

His ki is suppressed normally. When he's facing off with Cell, his and Cell's power surfaces.

Goku becomes excited to face him.

That is Goku's reaction to fighting people significantly stronger than himself. Remember, RSSJ Broly is already stronger than them out the gate, this time he proves to be way stronger. Goku isn't far off from Vegeta though.

Isn't it quite odd that:

Despite supposedly being more powerful than Grade III Trunks, no one draws a comparison between 50% Goku and Trunks.

Despite being even more powerful than Cell's power used vs Trunks, no one draws a comparison between 50% Goku and that level of Cell.

Cell never tells anyone how much power he has left to show, or even that he has a lot more power to show generally. He just says he wants to test the power of his perfect form without giving anything to quantify.

I think people take Korin's "Cell hasn't shown his full power yet" as license to pump up the scale to whatever degree.

Hypothetically, imagine Korin never said that. Then how would you scale it?

There's no need because there is no comparison. Also remember, Trunks' power is somewhat a secret to Vegeta. And his power is seen as a non-starter as well.

After meeting Cell, Goku tells the group that Cell has a ton of more power to boot.

Talking with Korin also reveals that Cell has shown nothing of his true power and has way more power.

No, Cell hasn't shown his true power means that Estimated FP Cell is probably beyond 100% Goku, we have a a very accurate estimate for that level of Cell that is very grounded in fact.

The narrative is clear, Korin just adds some extra evidence to this idea.

Estimated FP Cell > 100% Goku, Korin just agrees with Goku's assessment, that's all.

 

[Hector]

His ki is suppressed normally. When he's facing off with Cell, his and Cell's power surfaces.

Also, when Perfect Cell was still a little weaker by Super Vegeta, he said he was warming up. Maybe that was the level he also started out against Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Also, when Perfect Cell was still a little weaker by Super Vegeta, he said he was warming up. Maybe that was the level he also started out against Goku.

No, the anime filler depicts that Suppressed Cell is a level above Super Vegeta.

 

[Hector]

No, the anime filler depicts that Suppressed Cell is a level above Super Vegeta.

Where?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Where?

When Goku meets Perfect Cell for the first time, right after Goku leaves the Rosat.

Goku = Cell > Super Vegeta seems to be confirmed right there. This is pre-50% power as well.

 

[Dagon]

After meeting Cell, Goku tells the group that Cell has a ton of more power to boot.

He does not. He says he probably can't beat Cell. He doesn't tell the other Z-Fighters that Cell is withholding more power.

Talking with Korin also reveals that Cell has shown nothing of his true power and has way more power.

Korin does not use such descriptions as that. He simply says Cell hasn't shown his full power yet. He doesn't say how the prior power compares to Cell's expected power. He just says Cell will be stronger than full power Goku.

When Goku meets Perfect Cell for the first time, right after Goku leaves the Rosat.

Goku = Cell > Super Vegeta seems to be confirmed right there. This is pre-50% power as well.

Vegeta still doesn't say that Goku has surpassed him until he senses 50% Goku in the anime. Whatever power Goku showed when facing Cell is less than Vegeta's or Vegeta would comment on that level rather than wait until sensing 50% Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

He does not. He says he probably can't beat Cell. He doesn't tell the other Z-Fighters that Cell is withholding more power.

"To be honest, I didn't think he had gotten that strong. I couldn't guess how strong he could become if he felt like it."

"I won't know until I try, but the way thing are, I probably can't win, I bet.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta still doesn't say that Goku has surpassed him until he senses 50% Goku in the anime.

Vegeta didn't sense this level of power. Only Krillen, Roshi, and Yamcha seemed to sense it.

 

[Dagon]

"To be honest, I didn't think he had gotten that strong. I couldn't guess how strong he could become if he felt like it."

"I won't know until I try, but the way thing are, I probably can't win, I bet.

Cell standing in the arena is suppressed. You're also using a viz-ism I think. The original quote is talking about Cell being serious, as in fighting.

Even in your quote he doesn't say how Cell compares to any level. His not affirming Cell being stronger as much as he's affirming himself to be weaker than Cell. There's a difference between each type of statement.

Vegeta didn't sense this level of power. Only Krillen, Roshi, and Yamcha seemed to sense it.

This would be really odd given Piccolo and others could sense the fights between Vegeta, Trunks, and Cell earlier.

In need to be really clear: I'm not saying these statements affirm a lower scaling for this point in the story, only that they don't outright affirm a higher scaling. The scaling could as high as you propose, but in that case the statements would still not be affirming that scaling in and of themselves, they would simply exist alongside that scaling. I think there's a fallacy related to that. Like you can come to the correct conclusion but that doesn't mean your cited evidence actually supports your conclusion. Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle I think.

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[Power Level Guy]

Cell standing in the arena is suppressed. You're also using a viz-ism I think. The original quote is talking about Cell being serious, as in fighting.

Steve Simmons, brother.

Even in your quote he doesn't say how Cell compares to any level. His not affirming Cell being stronger as much as he's affirming himself to be weaker than Cell. There's a difference between each type of statement.

He's saying Expected Cell FP > 100% Goku FP > Current Cell.

Everyone knows Cell isn't outputting his all right now.

 

[Dagon]

Steve Simmons, brother.


He's saying Expected Cell FP > 100% Goku FP > Current Cell.

Everyone knows Cell isn't outputting his all right now.

I'm saying your cited evidence isn't supporting your claim. I'm not saying your claim or conclusion is wrong. I'm saying you need different evidence. Please understand the difference.

If expected Cell > everything prior, it's not for the reasons you are citing. Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle. I'm just saying you need different sources.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'm saying your cited evidence isn't supporting your claim. I'm not saying your claim or conclusion is wrong. I'm saying you need different evidence. Please understand the difference.

The statement clearly says that current Cell is nothing to FP Cell and it's said to the group.

If expected Cell > everything prior, it's not for the reasons you are citing.

Yes, Goku is saying Full Power Cell >>> Current Cell.

 

[Dagon]

The statement clearly says that current Cell is nothing to FP Cell and it's said to the group.

Yes, Goku is saying Full Power Cell >>> Current Cell.

It does not. It is affirming Goku < Cell, not Cell > everything prior. Notice that no one makes a reaction to Goku saying he doesn't know how strong serious Cell will be, rather they react to Goku saying he can't beat Cell.

Let me remind you again, I'm not saying your conclusion for expected Cell > everything prior is wrong, I'm saying your cited evidence is not supporting that conclusion. The lack of support from your cited evidence doesn't mean your conclusion is wrong, it means you need to cite different evidence. That's the Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle.

Once again the fact that I'm saying these things at all does not mean I am affirming expected Cell will be weaker than what your argument proposes.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It does not. It is affirming Goku < Cell, not Cell > everything prior.

"There's no telling how strong he can get when he puts his mind to it"

That means FP Cell > Current Cell.

 

[Dagon]

"There's no telling how strong he can get when he puts his mind to it"

That means FP Cell > Current Cell.

And "current Cell" can easily mean resting suppressed Cell in the arena that could be less than the power he used against Trunks. So when Goku says he will be weaker than Cell as far as the Z Fighters know Goku could be saying Goku < Cell vs Trunks.

 

[Power Level Guy]

And "current Cell" can easily mean resting suppressed Cell in the arena that could be less than the power he used against Trunks.

The burden of proof would have to be on you to prove that. It's assumed Cell is his regular power that he showcased before.

How come no one corrected Goku and said, "No Goku, we've already seen Cell showcase much more power"?

So when Goku says he will be weaker than Cell as far as the Z Fighters know Goku could be saying Goku < Cell vs Trunks.

Oh, absolutely not.

Absolutely no one thinks that Cell (Vs Vegeta/Trunks) > Goku.