I have no burden of proof because I'm not affirming that to be the case.
What is it that you think I said? Because what I said in my last post doesn't make sense with what you just said. It looks like you think I said Goku is affirming to them that he thinks suppressed Cell in the arena is Cell's full power. I never said that.
Because?
It doesn't matter who affirms what. It matters who is going against the grain. The assumption is that Cell = Cell. If you are stating Cell no longer = Cell, then you'd have to prove it.
Bandwagon fallacy hmm?
I never said that. And again you are shifting burden of proof for something I'm not even saying.
No, the reasonable person standard. In life, we are expected to make reasonable common sense assumptions. We do it all the time, this should be no different.
Yes, Krillen says Goku > Everyone. This doesn't mean what you think it does. This means that Krillen is saying Goku CG > Vegeta/Trunks CG.
Because Cell matches what Goku's expectations were. To be above him.
Appeal to common sense fallacy.
You're assuming I'm thinking it means Goku CG > Vegeta/Trunks pre-Cell Games and affirmatively excluding Cell Games as part of the equation but I never said that.
You still don't understand what I'm doing here. You're turning this into a contest about the overall conclusion to your argument but that was never the point of anything I said here.
)
Common sense is not a fallacy, it's common sense. This ain't philosophy, it's cartoons.
Ok, so I anticipating wrong. What do you think Krillen means by "He's beyond everyone"?
Ok, let's try again. What are you trying to do here?
Saying we should believe something because it's common sense is the appeal to common sense fallacy.
We are debating cartoons. This is not a philosophical debate, appealing to common sense is a reasonable argument.
Why would they be of discussion?
If current Cell = Cell who defeated Trunks and Vegeta, Goku's statement outright states that Cell's FP >> Current Cell.
It's not a concrete thing like a lot of other issues. It's more of a hmmm, how would I say? Author consistency kind of thing? How many times do we see someone shock everyone and not be the strongest? I would say it should be assumed someone doing that kind of power-up would scale way beyond everything we've previously seen. But I guess you could make this new amazing power weaker? I think it would be awkward, but I don't think I can fight you much on this if you don't take this implication to mean what I think it means.
No, I'm just a little taken aback that this is an actual debate. I feel like this is a slam dunk, and it's a little surprising to have to defend certain points.
Things that are counterintuitive can be true.
Because Goku should surpass the best that the Z fighters can do or have shown to do to be in line with Krillin's statement. No one says Goku surpassed everyone until Krillin says it at the Cell Games. That could allow the possibility that prior to then Goku had not surpassed everyone.
You are taking Goku's statement to mean "Cell is going to be so much stronger than anything seen before that I don't know where this going to end," but that's not what he said. It's a trick in the phrasing.
"That can't be!"
"I see..."Argument from Tradition or Common Practice. It's a form of improper reasoning.
It's a sneaky logical trick that flies can be easy to fly over one's head. I would say most people fall victim to it. It's like when someone says "does your mom know you're gay?" and a lot of people's gut reaction is "No!" as in "No I'm not gay," but that's not what the question was, so you get tricked into calling yourself gay.
Sure, but this doesn't mean we don't consider common sense at the beginning of every issue.
Sure.
Because Cell having far more power in store may not be shocking.
Yes, because the narrative is that Goku is their only hope. They are truly banking on Goku to be the answer to their worries. To hear their one shining hope say he can't win is alarming to say the least.
Because the idea of Cell being far stronger isn't shocking?
I'd say it's common practice for the shocking power-up to always be the top power, unless otherwise suggested. The shock indicates the power is the best ever sensed.
Because it has nothing to do with Vegeta, and everything to do with Goku vs Cell. "Goku you can't win? No problem, just go again!" That's all it is. Vegeta is not as strong as Cell, but notice how they aren't banking their hopes on Vegeta despite him having another chance. It's more about the character of Goku, the narrative of Son Goku, the savior, that they are banking on. This also occurred when Trunks wanted Vegeta to wait for Goku to get better before taking on the Androids. The cast feels like things are just always better with Goku around and they are right. That little wish from Bardock may have been more helpful then people realize.
Indeed, because the group doesn't understand the depths of Cell or Goku's powers. I think the question your narrative would need to answer is this right here. How strong is Expected Cell?
Me: Here is the dialogue from the scene. Each quote("") is a different speech balloon:
Trunks: "ど どうでし た か!?!?! 悟空さん"
Goku: "...………正直 あそこまで すごくなっているとは おもわなかった･･････"
"その気になったらどこまで強くなるのかちょっと見当が つかねえ･･････"
"やってみなきゃ わかんねえが"
"まあこのままじゃオラは たぶん 勝てねえだろうな"
Trunks: (reaction mark indicator)
Vegeta: "..........."(wide eyes)
Trunks: "そ...そんな......."
".............そうですか....."
ChatGPT:
Given this dialogue from the scene, let's analyze Goku's statements in relation to the discussion about his assessment of Cell's power:
### Translation and Context:
1. **Trunks**: "What was it like, Goku-san?"
2. **Goku**: "...Honestly, I didn't think he had become that strong..."
- "I have no idea how strong he could become if he gets serious..."
- "I won't know until I try, but..."
- "Well, as it stands, I probably can't win, I guess."
3. **Trunks**: (Shocked reaction)
4. **Vegeta**: "..........." (with wide eyes)
5. **Trunks**: "Is... is that so..."
- ".............I see....."
### Analysis:
1. **Goku's Surprise at Cell's Strength**: Goku expresses surprise at Cell's current level of strength, indicating that Cell has exceeded his expectations.
2. **Uncertainty About Cell's Full Potential**: When Goku mentions not having an idea how strong Cell could become if he gets serious, it indicates uncertainty about Cell's full potential. This is not an affirmation of Cell's power surpassing previous levels but rather an acknowledgment of Goku's inability to gauge Cell's limit.
3. **Goku's Doubt About Winning**: Goku's statement about probably not being able to win is a reflection of his own doubt rather than a specific judgment on Cell's maximum power.
4. **Reactions of Trunks and Vegeta**: The reactions of Trunks and Vegeta, especially Vegeta’s silent wide-eyed response, can be interpreted as surprise or concern at Goku's assessment, but they do not add specific information about Cell's power level.
### Conclusion:
- **Goku's Statements Reflect Uncertainty**: Goku’s words primarily convey his own uncertainty and surprise regarding Cell’s strength. They suggest that Cell might be more powerful than Goku expected, but they do not explicitly affirm that Cell will surpass all known power levels.
- **Subject to Interpretation**: The dialogue is open to interpretation. While it suggests that Cell is very powerful and potentially has untapped strength, it stops short of definitively stating that Cell's power will exceed all previously seen levels.
- **Narrative Purpose**: This kind of dialogue serves a narrative purpose in creating suspense and uncertainty about the upcoming confrontation. It sets the stage for the unfolding events without providing concrete answers about power levels.
In essence, Goku's statements communicate his uncertainty and respect for Cell's power but do not provide a clear affirmation of Cell's strength relative to all previous characters or battles.
Me:
So I'm right?
ChatGPT:
Based on the analysis of the dialogue, your interpretation appears well-supported. You argue that Goku's statements indicate his uncertainty about Cell's full strength and his own doubts about winning, rather than affirming that Cell will definitely show more power than what has been known up to that point. This interpretation aligns with the text of the dialogue:
1. Goku expresses surprise at Cell's current strength, suggesting that Cell has exceeded his expectations.
2. Goku states he cannot accurately gauge how strong Cell could become, indicating uncertainty rather than a definitive claim about Cell's potential power.
3. Goku's admission of doubt about his ability to win reflects his personal assessment of the situation, not a specific judgment on Cell's maximum power.
Your interpretation focuses on the ambiguity and uncertainty in Goku's statements, which is a reasonable reading of the dialogue. It suggests Goku's respect for Cell's abilities and his own doubts, rather than a concrete affirmation of Cell's power surpassing all previous levels. Therefore, in the context of this specific argument about what Goku's statements indicate, your interpretation is well-founded and aligns with the text.
That's only if you take Goku's estimate to stem from using Cell's maximum power from earlier as the minimum benchmark, the power Goku says is "not serious." With Cell likely being the type to suppress when not fighting this doesn't have to be the case.
Cell says he wants to test the power of his perfect form. He doesn't give anything to quantify that. He doesn't say whether it will be the same as up to then or more than that.
They only really find out Cell's full power when he uses it against SSJ2 Gohan. But as for his level vs Goku, they would only go off of a vague idea because Cell doesn't specify what his Perfect Form's power will be, only that he wants to test his Perfect Form's power.
It's so funny that you say this. I'm having the same feeling about you. I'm like, "Why is Dagon pushing so hard for this?" I'm assuming this breaks something important for you. I feel like you are fighting so hard to maintain a hold of your interpretation for whatever reason. That's so funny that we both feel this way. For me, I don't care what the answer is, the truth is what matters. I have no problem changing the numbers, that's the point of these conversations. I started this thread to 1,000% my views here, so the point is to try to find flaws. This is similar to the Final Freeza various forms vs Vegeta and Goku. The goal is to make the ultimate power level list. Don't let my desire to debate strongly for a point detract you from what the mission is. It feels like you are being biased for your numbers here, but I know in your heart, whatever the truth may be is what is most important. So I won't put you in a box, I will stick to the topic. I ask you give the same respect.
Ok it just seemed like you invested a lot into the scaling for 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks based on these quotes from Goku so it looked to me that you might have the sunk cost fallacy. You could scale it that way even without those quotes. For example, say post-RoSaT Piccolo surpassed Super Vegeta based on Trunks looking surprised at Goku saying Piccolo is useless, then put base Goku and Gohan above that from Buu Saga base Saiyan scaling and that would naturally put 50% SSJ Goku above Grade 3 Trunks. The bonus with that is you won't be using the Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle to support 50% SSJ Goku > Grade 3 Trunks.
1. Cell is suppressed I think. Less than the battle level he used fighting Vegeta and Trunks. Stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell, but not as high as the level(s) used to tank Vegeta and fight Trunks. Goku said he didn't think Cell got that strong so it has to at least be higher than Semi-Perfect Cell. Possibly his initial level that was less than Super Vegeta. Cell has dna of fighters that suppress when not fighting so it's a reasonable expectation.
2. They could have had a suspicion all along given that when Cell powers up to fight 100% SSJ Goku, no one talks about it. The anime has the Z-Fighters brace themselves from the wind but they don't comment on it. I think the Z-Fighters thought it was better not to assume Cell had shown his upper limit before the Cell Games just to be safe.
3. Goku knows Vegeta and Trunks were defeated, and Goku historically has kind of a hit or miss record for guessing how much power an opponent has left to show(he didn't know Vegeta could go up to 18k but he figured out Freeza used 50% against KKx20 KHH). Up to this point Goku could only guess. Goku's guess is confirmed to be right by Korin, so obviously Goku was thinking Cell was stronger than himself. How does that relate to the other fighters? It's not noted, so strictly based on the dialogue we can't say.
4. Stronger than Goku. How that relates to other fighters is not explicitly defined by the dialogue.
5. Might as well say it's the same "warm up" level from earlier, but I don't think it's 100% concrete. If you forced me to pick I'd say the earlier power level.
I believe 50% Goku for two main reasons. First off, when he shows up, he just puts everything on blast. 50% Goku showcases the highest power ever seen in the universe and I believe that is how the author intended it. We never see people get shook like that and the power not be way beyond them, unless very specifically stated.
Why wouldn't he be his regular power he showcased against Vegeta and Trunks? That should be his base, regular, walking around power.
Do you think they think Warm Up Cell might be FP Cell?
Goku seems to be informing the cast that Cell is even stronger than they expect.
His warm up level was enough to level Super Vegeta.
The point I'm trying to make is that what you are using to justify that position is being used through fallacious reasoning. You don't need to use Goku's quotes to justify 50% Goku exceeding all prior powers. His quotes in and of themselves don't do that, but you can scale through other evidence to get to that, which is why I gave you the Piccolo example earlier.
Cell has the dna of people who suppress to conserve energy, like what has been seen in prior arcs. Cell standing in the ring should not be assumed to be the same power he uses in battle because of that.
No. Goku can intuit things about opponents without always needing to sense their power. Goku doesn't need them to explain everything to him. His judgement about Cell turned out to be right. He figured it out on his own.
It's possible but I don't think it's a certainty. By one idea it could be thought of as Cell simply not trying his hardest at that level, or to could be that there's more to show. Generally I'd say they kept an open mind and just had a vague idea that they all needed to power up as much as possible just to be safe.
That's because the phrasing of it in English is similar to how people in English might imply something more yet to be seen. "How strong will Brian Shaw be at the next competition?" "I don't even know how strong he might become by then," can imply Brian Shaw is currently at a level potentially lower than what will be seen later. The difference is Brian Shaw doesn't have a superpower energy field he can fluctuate at will. It's a trick in the language.
Why did you think it important to say that?
Am I? How am I using Goku's quotes to show 50% > All? I feel like I am going in with that assumption, but how is it effecting the quotes?
Yea, it's entirely possible, but I feel like Goku can read through it either way and I don't think suppressing all the time is all that necessary. I think people are generally walking around with their ki out and not hiding it. Why would Cell suppress and not Piccolo?
In the anime Cell says that he is using the tournament to further draw out his power. This would definitely lead them to believe he has more, not sure if it's anime exclusive right now though.
Because Warm Up Goku = Warm Up Cell. This is a crucial piece of the puzzle.
It looked that way. When you said Goku saying he can't guess Cell's strength and says he can't beat Cell means Cell will show more power, weren't you using that to support expected Cell > Grade 3 Trunks?
Piccolo wants Goku's opinion on his own power, but Cell is just waiting for the games to start, so he doesn't have as much reason to show off to Goku.
I checked it, it's DBZ episode 165, and Trunks repeats it in 166. That's nice evidence, but we still don't get an indication of how this "further drawn out power" will compare to others. It would just mean expected Cell > prior Cell nondescriptly.
Which is not relevant prior to the actual warm up fight between them, as the powers shown when Goku meets Cell aren't given anything to quantify them numerically or relative to other characters.
