50% Goku > Warm-Up Goku = Base Cell

[Power Level Guy]

It looked that way. When you said Goku saying he can't guess Cell's strength and says he can't beat Cell means Cell will show more power, weren't you using that to support expected Cell > Grade 3 Trunks?

Yes, but indirectly. Goku doesn't know Grade 3 Trunks strength. But he knows his own 100% power and he knows Cell's full power goes beyond his own. And we know from Krillen later without a doubt that FP Goku > Grade 3 Trunks.

Piccolo wants Goku's opinion on his own power, but Cell is just waiting for the games to start, so he doesn't have as much reason to show off to Goku.

That's the thing. I don't think Cell is showing off, this is his natural power. This is his every day walking around power. I see no reason for Cell to change a natural thing. Piccolo was just chilling, he never expected for Goku to pop up like that, he's just hanging out at his natural power. I think Piccolo proves that they can just chill at full power no big deal and Cell is doing the same.

I checked it, it's DBZ episode 165, and Trunks repeats it in 166. That's nice evidence, but we still don't get an indication of how this "further drawn out power" will compare to others. It would just mean expected Cell > prior Cell nondescriptly.

But is it in the manga, too? It's the last couple of panels before Cell leaves from Trunks, could you check with it? I haven't set up the lens thing yet, I want to 100% confirm this is not an anime exclusive. But yea, I think this overall fits into the narrative that I've been talking about that you helped clarify for me as well. They aren't shocked when he says Cell has more power, because they already have the idea from Cell he has more. They just don't know quite how much and they weren't expecting it to be more than the power showcased to Korin. I really want to say I don't think that conversation happens between Piccolo and Trunks about Goku definitely being suppressed. I feel like that's more of a revelation they come across in their own speculations but perhaps I'm wrong. Vegeta's right there and should here it, but perhaps he's stubborn. I dunno..

Which is not relevant prior to the actual warm up fight between them, as the powers shown when Goku meets Cell aren't given anything to quantify them numerically or relative to other characters.

No, I'm speaking specifically of their fight. I think if Super Vegeta shows up and fights instead of Warm-Up Goku, he gets stomped badly.

One thing I picked up was just how badly Super Vegeta gets handled by Cell. It's like, really, really bad. Minor attacks are absolutely wrecking Vegeta, it's pretty nuts to see.

But yea, I think initial Cell's ki is not really Initial Cell, that's a fake ki hiding his true power. His true power is the power he uses to beat up Vegeta. He's not taking Vegeta seriously and Vegeta notices instantly, because Cell's actions aren't lining up with his ki, something is off. Initial Cell's ki was never the real deal, just a ruse.

 

[Dagon]

Yes, but indirectly. Goku doesn't know Grade 3 Trunks strength. But he knows his own 100% power and he knows Cell's full power goes beyond his own. And we know from Krillen later without a doubt that FP Goku > Grade 3 Trunks.

I would just focus on Krillin's statement as what would suggest Goku surpasses Grade 3 Trunks, as Goku's earlier statement is focused on the ambiguity of Cell's power.

That's the thing. I don't think Cell is showing off, this is his natural power. This is his every day walking around power. I see no reason for Cell to change a natural thing. Piccolo was just chilling, he never expected for Goku to pop up like that, he's just hanging out at his natural power. I think Piccolo proves that they can just chill at full power no big deal and Cell is doing the same.

Even taking that position, Cell commenting about drawing out more power doesn't tell us how much more it will be, just that it's more. Goku's statements don't have to be affirming that Cell will have more to show because Cell already spoke of it to Trunks, who told the others what Cell said.

But is it in the manga, too? It's the last couple of panels before Cell leaves from Trunks, could you check with it? I haven't set up the lens thing yet, I want to 100% confirm this is not an anime exclusive.

Yes it is in the manga.

Cell: 武道大会の目的は強さの確認と全世界を恐怖に落としいれること... Romanization: Budō taikai no mokuteki wa tsuyosa no kakunin to zensekai o kyōfu ni otoshiireru koto...

Translation: "The purpose of the martial arts tournament is to confirm strength and to plunge the entire world into fear..."

それにわたしの強さをさらに引き出すための練習になる･･･ Romanization: Sore ni watashi no tsuyosa o sarani hikiidasu tame no renshū ni naru...

Translation: "...and also to serve as practice to further draw out my strength..."

But yea, I think this overall fits into the narrative that I've been talking about that you helped clarify for me as well. They aren't shocked when he says Cell has more power, because they already have the idea from Cell he has more.

But you see we are getting into the minutia here. Goku doesn't actually say Cell will have more power, he says he won't know how strong Cell will be when Cell is serious. There's a difference.

We've established that there's an expectation that Cell will show more power later. We don't need to interpret Goku's quote that way as well, because that would be a fallacy. You can keep your scaling and let go of Goku's quote as part of it.

They just don't know quite how much and they weren't expecting it to be more than the power showcased to Korin. I really want to say I don't think that conversation happens between Piccolo and Trunks about Goku definitely being suppressed. I feel like that's more of a revelation they come across in their own speculations but perhaps I'm wrong. Vegeta's right there and should here it, but perhaps he's stubborn. I dunno..

It's a filler moment when Piccolo speculates that Goku has more power than the 50%, and the idea makes Trunks hopeful that Goku might win. The camera pans to Vegeta, implying he heard their conversation.

Even with all of that, the most concrete information we get is that Vegeta says Goku has surpassed him. So we know 50% Goku > Super Vegeta concretely. We aren't told anything about how 50% Goku compares to anyone else. There's at leas the possibility that 50% Goku does not surpass Grade 3 Trunks because prior to this the series has shown people give strong reactions to powers that aren't the highest ever. If I had to describe it as a Venn diagram, the highest power ever would make Vegeta admit Goku surpassed him, but so would a power less than Grade 3 Trunks.

Additionally the idea that some have proposed that the Z-Fighters wouldn't react dramatically if 50% Goku wasn't the highest power ever is just plain wrong. We saw it in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas multiple times. Then people start to nitpick like "the expression isn't drawn the same" or they're pixel-peeping sweat drops.

No, I'm speaking specifically of their fight. I think if Super Vegeta shows up and fights instead of Warm-Up Goku, he gets stomped badly.

One thing I picked up was just how badly Super Vegeta gets handled by Cell. It's like, really, really bad. Minor attacks are absolutely wrecking Vegeta, it's pretty nuts to see.

But yea, I think initial Cell's ki is not really Initial Cell, that's a fake ki hiding his true power. His true power is the power he uses to beat up Vegeta. He's not taking Vegeta seriously and Vegeta notices instantly, because Cell's actions aren't lining up with his ki, something is off. Initial Cell's ki was never the real deal, just a ruse.

How do these points help your argument?

We aren't given anything to judge how resting Goku compares to Cell or how resting Cell compares to fighting Cell. Even if Goku sensed Cell's level to beat up Vegeta and Trunks, when Goku tells the Z-Fighters his chances, all it means is that Goku will be weaker than either the prior Cell or the yet to come expected Cell, whose power relative to his prior self and other people is not clearly defined up to then.

When Goku says "I probably can't win," that could mean Goku < Cell vs Vegeta/Trunks or it could mean Goku < Expected Cell, and even in the latter case the story up to that point does not give us something to quantify that level of Cell.

Furthermore there's the possibility that they might disregard Grade 3 Trunks as part of power judgements as it was inherently a flawed power-up. Even by saying Krillin's quote of Goku surpassing everyone refers to the current Cell Games characters could be countered by saying it could exclude the prior Grade 3 Trunks form since Trunks won't use that power-up again, even if his new SSJ hasn't surpassed his old Grade 3.

All that being said, to scale 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks, just place Piccolo near or above Super Vegeta level and then 25x that will surpass Grade 3 Trunks by making Buu saga base Gohan/Goku stronger than Piccolo.

Trunks: 0.96
~SSJ: 48
~SSJ Grade 2: 72
~SSJ Grade 3(lowball): 480
~SSJ Grade 3(highball): 720

Vegeta: 1
~SSJ: 50
~SSJ Grade 2: 75

Piccolo(Post-RoSaT: 90

Goku(Cell Games): 100
~50% SSJ: 2,500
~100% SSJ: 5,000

It would make a huge gulf between the Saiyan kids and Gohan unless Android 18 got stronger, but at least there isn't a fallacy in use.

I'll make note that I stand corrected about what Cell said to Trunks about the Cell Games. I thought he didn't say anything about drawing out more power. My view has changed a little but I stand by my points for what Goku's quotes mean.

Oh there's one more thing to note. In Japanese, they don't do the "stress" thing that we do in English. That being when you essentially speak in bold or italics. So to you it might be read as "There's no telling how strong he might become when he gets serious," like in your head these words are being spoken with emphasis, but in Japanese they don't do this. Proper Japanese speech is "flat," with each word and syllable getting as close to an equal amount of stress as possible. While they can raise or lower their voice, they don't change the meaning of words based on how stressed it is, like we do. So when Goku says he doesn't know how strong Cell will be when serious, there's not a double meaning to it like we might do in English.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I would just focus on Krillin's statement as what would suggest Goku surpasses Grade 3 Trunks, as Goku's earlier statement is focused on the ambiguity of Cell's power.

Krillen's statement isn't about Grade 3 though.

Even taking that position, Cell commenting about drawing out more power doesn't tell us how much more it will be, just that it's more. Goku's statements don't have to be affirming that Cell will have more to show because Cell already spoke of it to Trunks, who told the others what Cell said.

Cell's power is ambiguous to the Z team, Goku seems to have the inside edge here on how strong Cell really is, the Z team is expecting more from Cell, we just don't know how much more. Goku's statement to them doesn't necessarily increase their expectation of how strong they initially assumed Cell was.

But you see we are getting into the minutia here. Goku doesn't actually say Cell will have more power, he says he won't know how strong Cell will be when Cell is serious. There's a difference.

Goku is outright stating FP Cell > Current Cell. He has a great sense of just how much power Cell has. He does know, he's saying, "I don't know" in a way like, "Geez, this guy is really, really strong." Goku has a very firm estimate on Cell's power.

Good to see that is confirmed. Another Viz-ism not including that. That line is a big deal here.

We've established that there's an expectation that Cell will show more power later. We don't need to interpret Goku's quote that way as well, because that would be a fallacy. You can keep your scaling and let go of Goku's quote as part of it.

You are overanalyzing my motives. I'm giving you my interpretation.

Goku visits Cell, says Cell's FP > Current Cell and says Cell FP > Himself. He does know, he's just saying he's doesn't know in a way I don't know how to describe. It's just a language thing. I don't know what its called when you say something but is not meant to be taken so literally.

How is this issue relevant to your argument? Goku's comments to the Z team don't have a real effect other than Cell > Goku being established. They already assume FP Cell > Current Cell.

Even with all of that, the most concrete information we get is that Vegeta says Goku has surpassed him. So we know 50% Goku > Super Vegeta concretely. We aren't told anything about how 50% Goku compares to anyone else. There's at leas the possibility that 50% Goku does not surpass Grade 3 Trunks because prior to this the series has shown people give strong reactions to powers that aren't the highest ever. If I had to describe it as a Venn diagram, the highest power ever would make Vegeta admit Goku surpassed him, but so would a power less than Grade 3 Trunks.

Sure, I'm cool with it.

When Goku says "I probably can't win," that could mean Goku < Cell vs Vegeta/Trunks or it could mean Goku < Expected Cell, and even in the latter case the story up to that point does not give us something to quantify that level of Cell.

I can't beat Cell is explicitly speaking about a Cell who has not shown his true strength. That's how Goku is saying it. That's the way the Z team should be taking it as well.

We aren't given anything to judge how resting Goku compares to Cell or how resting Cell compares to fighting Cell.

Well, Cell has showcased a power tremendously above Super Vegeta. Cell should be fighting Warm-Up Goku with this level of power. That level of Cell is stated to be his warm-up power on multiple occasions, no reason to change the status quo without evidence.

Even if Goku sensed Cell's level to beat up Vegeta and Trunks, when Goku tells the Z-Fighters his chances, all it means is that Goku will be weaker than either the prior Cell

It's unlikely since Goku is implying he's more in a rivaling range. FP Cell should not rival Current Cell.

the yet to come expected Cell, whose power relative to his prior self and other people is not clearly defined up to then.

It should be clearly defined FP Cell > Current Cell, by Cell himself and Goku as well.

When Goku says "I probably can't win," that could mean Goku < Cell vs Vegeta/Trunks or it could mean Goku < Expected Cell, and even in the latter case the story up to that point does not give us something to quantify that level of Cell.

No, it's already been established by both Cell and Goku that FP Cell > Current Cell.

The only one who would even imagine this scenario is Vegeta because he's so blinded by his rivalry he somehow thinks he might be above Goku. Goku is handled the mantle right off the bat once he exits, everyone assumes Goku is top dog.


This doesn't necessarily have to include Trunks though.

Furthermore there's the possibility that they might disregard Grade 3 Trunks as part of power judgements as it was inherently a flawed power-up. Even by saying Krillin's quote of Goku surpassing everyone refers to the current Cell Games characters could be countered by saying it could exclude the prior Grade 3 Trunks form since Trunks won't use that power-up again, even if his new SSJ hasn't surpassed his old Grade 3.

Possible, but not probable. I think the narrative is 50% rules over all. Grade 3 Trunks is not included since Vegeta/Trunks already surpassed Grade 3 Trunks making his point moot. Grade 3 Trunks was already surpassed, surpassing him wouldn't warrant a comment.

FP Goku surpasses the current power of Vegeta/Trunks.

All that being said, to scale 50% Goku > Grade 3 Trunks,

I think that based on his initial appearance and the Warm Up fight.

just place Piccolo near or above Super Vegeta level

Base Kid Gohan > Base RoF Gohan > Piccolo > Base Boys

SSJ Boys = Cell Jr

Would not allow for Piccolo to be so strong when the boys are relatively powerful compared to the adults.

Trunks: 0.96
~SSJ: 48
~SSJ Grade 2: 72
~SSJ Grade 3(lowball): 480
~SSJ Grade 3(highball): 720

Vegeta: 1
~SSJ: 50
~SSJ Grade 2: 75

Piccolo(Post-RoSaT: 90

Goku(Cell Games): 100
~50% SSJ: 2,500
~100% SSJ: 5,000

This would be problematic for me since the Base Boys = Future Trunks CG.

So Base Kid Trunks being around 1 and Android 18 being around 1 would make Goku being 100x stronger way too strong.

Cell Jrs > Base Goku

SSJ Kids > Base Goku

It would make a huge gulf between the Saiyan kids and Gohan unless Android 18 got stronger, but at least there isn't a fallacy in use.

My argument contains zero fallacies. I'm following common sense, rational, plausible assumptions to gather a complete view on the subject.

If you want to attack this argument, it's all dependent on Warm Up Goku vs Warm up Cell. The anime seems to imply that this might be their full powers. I don't think the manga implies that, but the only way I can be moved from this logic from what I can see is by breaking this idea of Warm Up Goku = Warm Up Cell. This would really destroy the narrative that I see so clearly and would force me to completely reinterpret every scene.

I'll make note that I stand corrected about what Cell said to Trunks about the Cell Games. I thought he didn't say anything about drawing out more power. My view has changed a little but I stand by my points for what Goku's quotes mean.

Yeah, I'm learning a lot through this conversation. This is some Hyperbolic Time Chamber type of training right now. When you really microfocus on all of these little issues, you end up learning a lot.

"There's no telling how strong he might become when he gets serious," like in your head these words are being spoken with emphasis, but in Japanese they don't do this. Proper Japanese speech is "flat," with each word and syllable getting as close to an equal amount of stress as possible. While they can raise or lower their voice, they don't change the meaning of words based on how stressed it is, like we do. So when Goku says he doesn't know how strong Cell will be when serious, there's not a double meaning to it like we might do in English.

I'm sure the paid translators are capable of transliteration. There's always gotta be some conversion, word for word isn't always the best approach. Sometimes thought for thought is better.

But the real question I have is, Do you really think that Goku has no idea how strong Cell says, when he says that?

But yeah man, if you want to break the time loop I'm stuck in, attack Warm Up Goku vs Warm Up Cell with everything you got. That's what I'm currently up to now. Obviously we draw different conclusions, but I do attack my own arguments very strongly all the time, that's how I've been able to hold positions that are very well defended. I have no interest in personal views being held sacred, these are meaningless to me. I much rather have a very accurate list then even have one inaccuracy.

Remember, what is one of my biggest complaints? That the actual author is not numerically accurate enough to line up with his own narrative correctly. Lol. There is no point in me holding onto inaccurate views no matter the consequences. I can always make a new list, as I've done thousands of times.

Just imagine, I've essentially "ruined" all of my early Dragonball numbers due to my belief that Great Ape Fist should be a 10x power-up. Do you know how destructive that view is for power levels? I'm already doing decimal point levels, and now they get ten times less aesthetic? Lol.

I do not appreciate this lens where I'm some "biased for my numbers" type of person. I deserver better than this, way better. I've proven time and time again I'm willing to jump ship to follow what I feel is the better argument. Please show me the proper respect for all of the hard work I've done to being one of the least biased people here. I have a decade plus history of trying all sorts of arguments every which way. This does not mean I'm right. Only that I've done everything in my power to legitimately to seek what is right. Thank you, I'd appreciate it. As you can see with my discussion with EV, that is the proper way to have fun, long winded, but enjoyable, intense, hyper-focused discussions. I'd appreciate if you stop trying to psychoanalyze me and focus on the actual points I'm making. When we try to think what another person is thinking, we are often wrong. I'd like to keep things more formal, let's stick to the topics and leave the psychiatry to the experts. Can we agree to that? There are times when we run into people holding views that we consider irrational, it's not our job to try to analyze why, we just have to move on from that point and just agree to disagree. There's no need to ever discuss the person when debating is done properly.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I just checked the manga. It's completely different from the anime. The anime implies that Warm-Up Goku vs Cell is their top powers. Everyone is judging that to be the case. This would completely destroy my narrative and the anime is very accurate in how I view things many times, just not here.

With the manga, the manga seems 100% clear, no one is surprised that Cell said it was a warm-up. The only one who is surprised is the reporter, everyone knows that it wasn't the real fight.

How can I convince you that Super Vegeta would get wrecked against either of them at this moment? I don't think I can get you to budge, but all I'd say is that Cell's legit warm-up power was the one showcased against Vegeta and Trunks. There's no reason for his warm-up power to change here.

So this still doesn't force 50% > Grade 3, but you probably would have to put it at least on par with.

If you've noticed with ahill's numbers, I didn't outright state he was wrong for keeping the powers close, I just added my personal preference that 50% be overwhelmingly superior.

If you have Base Saiyans > Androids, extending this gap is also essentially in making CG Goku around 100x 18, which is what is probably needed to make the Buu Saga gaps work as well.

So all in all, I think I cannot be budged at this point after really trying out every idea. I feel like my position has been strengthened by looking deeper into it and Cell's statement about having more power really solidifies my point further.

If there are no points worth exploring anymore, let me know. I don't think I can budge, I've come to a conclusion on each point. Is there any points you are considering you can budge?

We don't want to keep rehashing our same points, if we are stalemated, we are stalemated. And that's ok. Because there are other plausible ideas.

But my main, rock solid idea is this.

50% Goku > Warm Up Goku = Warm Up Cell >> Super Vegeta

And it's mainly because of the feats. I feel like Cell is his same power, and this non-power-up version of Goku can match him. Seeing how Goku needs to do a major power up to reach 50% power, his Warm Up power must be tremendously weaker than it.

I can see the case being made for 50% Goku ~ Grade 3 Trunks, I'm fine with that, but the main point is 50% Goku >> Warm Up Goku, and if that doesn't at least put you close to Grade 3 territory, I'm left scratching my head how that would work.

But yes, the 50% Goku > All doesn't have to be 100% the only way to look at it, I don't know why I'm arguing it has to be the case when I generally don't take it that far.

I think it makes sense, is necessary to line things up for later sagas, and I have no real case against it, so I go with it. I do think it's implied, but if you want to keep them close to equals, I can't complain all too much.

Anyway, I think that's all I got on the subject. This has been good.

 

[Dagon]

It should be clearly defined FP Cell > Current Cell, by Cell himself and Goku as well.


No, it's already been established by both Cell and Goku that FP Cell > Current Cell.

Our responses are getting exponentially longer so I'll cut to the meat of what is really in contention, which is mostly just these points.

We agree 50% Goku > Warm up Cell(Cell Games) = Warm up Goku(Cell Games).

We agree 50% Goku > Super Vegeta.

Beyond this the issue lies with what is and is not certain regarding evidence, and what the evidence means intrinsically.

As for Goku's quote about himself vs Cell, the reason why it is not an affirmation of Cell having more power is because of the original phrasing. "I can't guess how strong he will become" does not equal "I can guess he will become so strong that I don't even know where it ends."

The Z Fighters already have Cell saying the Cell Games will draw out more power. They don't need Goku to tell them that Cell will get stronger. The focus of Goku's statement is how he compares to Cell on a relative measure, not how expected Cell will compare to all by absolute measure. That's why it's not an affirmation that Cell will show more power. It doesn't need to be.

Expected Cell isn't in question when Goku measures himself against Cell. Goku's position relative to Cell is what is in question. That is the point to Goku's statement upon returning to the Z-Fighters.

The certainty established by Goku visiting Cell is that FP SSJ Goku < Expected Cell. That much is clear.

What is not certain is how FP SSJ Goku and expected Cell compares to other known powers aside from being > Super Vegeta.

If you were to ask me what is certain based on context and dialogue, my most certain power chain is this:

Expected Cell > FPSSJ Goku > 50% Goku > Super Vegeta

We don't know for certain the gap between Expected Cell and warming up Cell(whether it's vs Goku or vs Vegeta/Trunks). Nothing numerically at least. When Cell says the Cell games will draw out more power, he doesn't tell anything to quantify it.

We are not even told if Cell's warmup vs Goku was the same level used against Vegeta and Trunks. It very well could be, but it's not certain.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your scale, but to help you understand what you are doing with your scaling argument, and to make it better by improving its form.

My argument contains zero fallacies. I'm following common sense, rational, plausible assumptions to gather a complete view on the subject.

It literally contains the fallacy of the undistributed middle when you interpret Goku's statement upon returning from Cell to mean Goku is affirming that Cell will get stronger as evidence for Expected Cell being stronger.

Again I will remind you that this doesn't mean if you interpret it properly that Goku is positively affirming that Cell will not become stronger or even that I am doing so regardless of what Goku believes. That would be the false dichotomy fallacy.

Expected Cell very well can be stronger than warmup Cell and Goku is not affirming that Cell will be stronger because he's not affirming Cell will not be stronger either.

The fallacy of the undistributed middle occurs when a syllogism (a form of reasoning where a conclusion is drawn from two given or assumed premises) fails because the middle term is not distributed in at least one of the premises. This fallacy often leads to a mistaken conclusion because it assumes a connection between two things that share a common attribute, without sufficient justification for this connection. In other words, it's an error in deductive reasoning where the evidence provided does not logically support the conclusion, although it also does not necessarily contradict it. This fallacy can lead to incorrect conclusions because it overlooks the possibility of other factors or scenarios that could invalidate the supposed connection.

When you say "Goku told the Z-Fighters that Cell will become stronger," the issue is that is not the meaning of Goku's statement. That's a claim about Cell's absolute measure against others, but Goku's statement was about his relative measure against Cell. Goku's statement not being an affirmation about Cell's power by absolute measure does not necessitate that Cell's absolute measure in the argument be changed.

Your argument becomes better by removing this fallacy. So instead of saying "we know Cell will be stronger at the Cell Games because Goku said so," you say "we know Cell will be stronger at the Cell Games because [insert reasons]."

Your conclusion isn't necessarily wrong for including the fallacy, but your argument isn't in valid form by including the fallacy.

 

[Dagon]

I just checked the manga. It's completely different from the anime. The anime implies that Warm-Up Goku vs Cell is their top powers. Everyone is judging that to be the case. This would completely destroy my narrative and the anime is very accurate in how I view things many times, just not here.

With the manga, the manga seems 100% clear, no one is surprised that Cell said it was a warm-up. The only one who is surprised is the reporter, everyone knows that it wasn't the real fight.

I watched episode 177. There is that one moment when Gohan asks why Goku won't get serious, and Trunks looks surprised, with Vegeta saying he knew it. If anything that could be used to say Warmup Goku = or even > 50% Goku. That would actually nerf the power scale!

How can I convince you that Super Vegeta would get wrecked against either of them at this moment? I don't think I can get you to budge, but all I'd say is that Cell's legit warm-up power was the one showcased against Vegeta and Trunks. There's no reason for his warm-up power to change here.

I mean hey, if the anime is anything to go by...

But my main, rock solid idea is this.

50% Goku > Warm Up Goku = Warm Up Cell >> Super Vegeta

And it's mainly because of the feats. I feel like Cell is his same power, and this non-power-up version of Goku can match him. Seeing how Goku needs to do a major power up to reach 50% power, his Warm Up power must be tremendously weaker than it.

I can see the case being made for 50% Goku ~ Grade 3 Trunks, I'm fine with that, but the main point is 50% Goku >> Warm Up Goku, and if that doesn't at least put you close to Grade 3 territory, I'm left scratching my head how that would work.

Looking at episode 177 and taking that dialogue into account, it could even mean Grade 3 Trunks > Warmup Cell = Warmup Goku ~ 50% Goku with how Trunks was surprised that Gohan said Goku wasn't serious. I can't recall the last time someone cited that one. It's an easy miss it seems. Goku is likely using less than his expected full power that was expected to be more than his 50% since Vegeta wasn't perturbed by this power.

As for the manga it could be different but it's not like the manga outright opposes these rankings either.

But yes, the 50% Goku > All doesn't have to be 100% the only way to look at it, I don't know why I'm arguing it has to be the case when I generally don't take it that far.

I think it makes sense, is necessary to line things up for later sagas, and I have no real case against it, so I go with it. I do think it's implied, but if you want to keep them close to equals, I can't complain all too much.

Anyway, I think that's all I got on the subject. This has been good.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Alright fair enough, looks like we've exhausted the topic.

Yeah, the anime may even have it as...

Warm up Goku = Expected FP Goku > 50% Goku

The manga definitely has it as...

50% Goku > Warm Up Goku = Warm Up Cell > Super Vegeta imo

 

[ahill1]

In the manga Cell states the level he initially used vs Vegeta who was read by 16 as < Vegeta was his warm up.

DBZ
Chapter 189
Context : Perfect Cell and Vegeta are about to clash, after Kuririn is almost killed by a kick
Cell : Would you help me warm up?

They clash for a while

Android 16 : Cell did get a lot stronger... But Vegeta is still better than him at every thing...!

Vegeta gets frustrated since Cell wasn't using his FP, that's what he's frustrated about... Because he catches on Cell not taking him seriously.

Vegeta : You scum! ... You're not taking this seriously...
Cell : I told you I was warming up.

Vegeta: Fight for real!! I can feel your anger, turn it on me!!!
Cell : Alright, if you insist

This fake chi stated is nothing more than Cell suppressing, as Kuririn stated:

Kuririn : The amount of chi you're sensing from him now is nothing... He got way, way more power...

And then Kuririn says "just like you, Trunks"... Just like you what? That Cell was concealing his true strength the same way Trunks was... With Kuririn noticing he ---- Trunks --- is concealing his power, holding it back for Vegeta not to sense it.

It's basically the same as Cell being suppressed and then leveling it up to fight Vegeta...

Whether Cell used this warm up level vs Goku, as in, the level said to be < Super Vegeta... Which is likely... Or whether the warm up standard for Goku was higher... That's debatable. But it could very well be the resting, warm up level read as < ssjg2 Vegeta... Nothing outright contradicts it and the same wording, even though not a definitive, is still an implication.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Do you think Cell ever fights at the level 16 sensed?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Whether Cell used this warm up level vs Goku, as in, the level said to be < Super Vegeta... Which is likely... Or whether the warm up standard for Goku was higher...

Well, why would his warm up go down? Generally when villains raise their power, they don't reduce it.

 

[Dagon]

Well, why would his warm up go down? Generally when villains raise their power, they don't reduce it.

I posted on Neo about this. Turns out the anime may suggest Cell beating up Vegeta is not a warmup.
It appears there is a subtitle-ism in play. The subtitles don't reflect the dialogue accurately here. The subtitles make it seem like the warmup is still in progress and Vegeta will be defeated before it ends. This is after Cell kicks Vegeta into the ocean.

Spoiler: DBZ Episode 162

Spoiler: Jump Anime Comics

Dialogue:

Cell:
フン! クズが･･･
Romanization: Fun! Kuzu ga...

Translation: "Hmph! Trash..."

ベジータ残念だがウォーミングアップはおしまいのようだな
Romanization: Bejīta zannen da ga wōmingu appu wa oshimai no yō da na

Translation: "Vegeta, it's a pity, but it seems the warm-up is over."

The subtitles inserted a lot more than what was originally written.

If the Japanese dialogue were to match the English subtitles that say, "Vegeta, unfortunately it seems you'll be finished while I'm warming up," it might be something like this:

ベジータ、残念だがお前が倒れる頃には私はまだウォーミングアップ中のようだ。

Romanization: Bejīta, zannen da ga omae ga taoreru koro ni wa watashi wa mada wōmingu appu chū no yō da.

We will need to be more diligent against these isms.

So yes Cell's power beating up Vegeta doesn't have to be a warmup power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I posted on Neo about this. Turns out the anime may suggest Cell beating up Vegeta is not a warmup.
It appears there is a subtitle-ism in play. The subtitles don't reflect the dialogue accurately here. The subtitles make it seem like the warmup is still in progress and Vegeta will be defeated before it ends. This is after Cell kicks Vegeta into the ocean.

Spoiler: DBZ Episode 162

View attachment 3373

Spoiler: Jump Anime Comics

View attachment 3374

Dialogue:

Cell:
フン! クズが･･･
Romanization: Fun! Kuzu ga...

Translation: "Hmph! Trash..."

ベジータ残念だがウォーミングアップはおしまいのようだな
Romanization: Bejīta zannen da ga wōmingu appu wa oshimai no yō da na

Translation: "Vegeta, it's a pity, but it seems the warm-up is over."

The subtitles inserted a lot more than what was originally written.

If the Japanese dialogue were to match the English subtitles that say, "Vegeta, unfortunately it seems you'll be finished while I'm warming up," it might be something like this:

ベジータ、残念だがお前が倒れる頃には私はまだウォーミングアップ中のようだ。

Romanization: Bejīta, zannen da ga omae ga taoreru koro ni wa watashi wa mada wōmingu appu chū no yō da.

We will need to be more diligent against these isms.

So yes Cell's power beating up Vegeta doesn't have to be a warmup power.

I'm confused? My position is that Cell is the same power the entire time. From the moment he arrives until the moment he powers up to exceed Goku's FP.

 

[Dagon]

I'm confused? My position is that Cell is the same power the entire time. From the moment he arrives until the moment he powers up to exceed Goku's FP.

That contradicts what we are shown. 16 would say initial Cell > Vegeta if that were the case, and Vegeta would feel that power and know he's outclassed.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That contradicts what we are shown. 16 would say initial Cell > Vegeta if that were the case

The anime has 16 make several remarks implying that.

and Vegeta would feel that power and know he's outclassed.

Vegeta can't feel the power because he's, well, Vegeta. As Krillen states. But Vegeta through fighting him realizes something is off. He realizes Cell actually has a lot more power. He starts fighting Cell frantically and so on, the narrative picks up with Piccolo as well.

So essentially everyone is fooled by Cell's fake ki, until they slowly realize he's been faking it the whole time. He was never below Vegeta, at all.

Think of a less extreme example of Goku vs Reecome. Goku is a 5, right? The scouter reads 5, but Goku is actually over 60,000, right?

I feel this is the same. When the fight ends, he fights Ginyu with over 60k once again. I think Cell works exactly the same way here.

 

[Dagon]

@Power Level Guy Goku was 5,000. It was Future Trunks who was 5 when meeting Freeza.

Your theory is too speculative for me. It's a principle in science that a good theory needs to be falsifiable. When you structure your theory in a way that your theory cannot be falsified by counter-evidence, that is an improperly constructed theory.

When you say no one notices Cell's changes in power level for this to that reason then you are attempting to remove falsifiability from your theory in a similar way to the Cosmic Teapot example.

It's like when someone says there can't be a booogeyman under your bed because they didn't see him, you say "that's because he's invisible." Then they feel under the bed and feel nothing, and try to tell you again that there's nothing there. Then you say "that's because he's intangible too." And in and on. You keep avoiding disproofs when people make counter points.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Your theory is too speculative for me.

Ok, sheesh, I guess we will have to through it with even more detail. Should be a fun exercise though.

Let's go step by step.

Krillen "Don't trust his current power output, he has hidden strength and he's far more powerful."

This to me implies far more than merely suppression. This implies a fake ki reading.

Saying you are one strength, but really being another is different than suppressing, suppressing means you can be higher than you are currently suggesting, but the level you are currently suggesting is accurate.

Can we agree on this?

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's like when someone says there can't be a booogeyman under your bed because they didn't see him, you say "that's because he's invisible." Then they feel under the bed and feel nothing, and try to tell you again that there's nothing there. Then you say "that's because he's intangible too." And in and on. You keep avoiding disproofs when people make counter points.

The only problem here is that the boogeyman is literally under the bed, but he does happen to be invisible and intangible. It just becomes extremely hard to explain things when they are hard to explain, it doesn't mean that they aren't happening.

 

[ahill1]

Fake chi = suppression. Goku was suppressed when he was read as 5,000.....

 

[Power Level Guy]

Fake chi = suppression. Goku was suppressed when he was read as 5,000.....

How does Vegeta know he’s not serious

 

[Dagon]

The only problem here is that the boogeyman is literally under the bed, but he does happen to be invisible and intangible. It just becomes extremely hard to explain things when they are hard to explain, it doesn't mean that they aren't happening.

If the boogeyman in question evades all detection then it's not proven to exist. If you claim the boogeyman is there the onus is not on others to disprove the presence of the boogeyman, or to do the work for you to prove the boogeyman is there.