Android #16 vs [Boo arc] base Goku

[ahill1]

Who wins this fuckery?

 

[SSJ2]

Rip Goku. If the kids are around his Cell Games level and are slightly above 18 at best, Goku's Base shouldn't be more than 2x above them as 16 is shown to be.

Cell Games Goku: 10
Cell Games Gohan: 14
Boo arc Goku: 16

Goten/Trunks: ~10
18: ~10
16: >20

Unless you think Imperfect Cell's advantage over 17/Piccolo was less than 2x, Goku loses pretty easily.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I keep swinging between a 2x and a 1.66x gap between Cell/16 and Piccolo because of 50% Goku vs SSJG3 Trunks, but 16 should win either way.

Goku: 600
Cell and 16: 750-900

 

[Captain Cadaver]

#16 stomps. Base Goku shouldn't be leagues above the kids, who in turn aren't leagues above #18.

 

[Animelover5487]

Does #16 really need to be 2+x #17 and Kamiccolo though? Piccolo was heavily fatigued when he fired that technique at Cell and ki blast tanks are kind of inconsistent.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If we're to believe the Gekiretsu Kodan is more powerful than the Makankosappo and Toriyama didn't retcon the amplification of it, then yes. That, and it's a lot more difficult numerically to have the Base Saiyans be above #18 without such unless having some even less necessary bloat for characters later in the Cell Arc or using something less than 50x for the SSJ multiplier.

 

[Animelover5487]

If we're to believe the Gekiretsu Kodan is more powerful than the Makankosappo and Toriyama didn't retcon the amplification of it, then yes. That, and it's a lot more difficult numerically to have the Base Saiyans be above #18 without such unless having some even less necessary bloat for characters later in the Cell Arc or using something less than 50x for the SSJ multiplier.

Yeah but Piccolo was fatigued from fighting an artifical human who had equal power to him and limitless, so it stands to reason that Piccolo likely couldn't put his full power into the technique. Piccolo also said earlier something along the lines that Gingertown Cell's KHH was comparable to how Goku's used to be and that was more than double Goku's power level according to Raditz's scouter, and judging by Cell being able to catch Piccolo off-guard and damage his arm, as well as the implication that Cell even then was stronger than the Super Saiyans, I don't think Piccolo was over twice as strong as Cell.

Well, Future Trunks after two trips in the ROSAT still needed SSJ to stomp 17 and 18, and Trunks was at least over 50% of CG Goku. Base Goten and Trunks still seemed weaker than 18 even taking into account the Mighty Mask suit, especially in the anime where she knocked them on their ass several times.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah but Piccolo was fatigued from fighting an artifical human who had equal power to him and limitless, so it stands to reason that Piccolo likely couldn't put his full power into the technique.

Fatigue causing characters to not be able to draw out their full power is usually either verbally or visually shown if so, such as Goku's weakened Kamehamehas at points in Part 1. Not only that, but Piccolo's shock at Cell tanking it certainly isn't that of someone who was both aware of Cell having greatly powered up and being aware of their own condition.

Piccolo also said earlier something along the lines that Gingertown Cell's KHH was comparable to how Goku's used to be and that was more than double Goku's power level according to Raditz's scouter, and judging by Cell being able to catch Piccolo off-guard and damage his arm, as well as the implication that Cell even then was stronger than the Super Saiyans, I don't think Piccolo was over twice as strong as Cell.

Whilst I'd agree that the Kamehameha certainly wasn't a 2x+ amp in the Cell Arc (with battle powers and amplification being purely plot dependent), it isn't necessarily debunked when Piccolo still felt the need to dodge the Kamehameha rather than attempt to counter it.

Well, Future Trunks after two trips in the ROSAT still needed SSJ to stomp 17 and 18, and Trunks was at least over 50% of CG Goku. Base Goten and Trunks still seemed weaker than 18 even taking into account the Mighty Mask suit, especially in the anime where she knocked them on their ass several times.

Goten and Trunks are significantly stronger than Future Trunks though (especially considering what the Daizenshuu has to say on their power compared to Gohan), plus Trunks was going into the fight 2 V 1 and was shown 3 years later capable of catching Cell off-guard and sending him hundreds of meters back despite Cell at least being somewhat aware of what his power was in the past. Even if we were to say the kids were weaker than #18, it wouldn't be by much with the Daizenshuu backing up what we're shown of Trunks fighting on par with #18 in a restrictive costume and the anime can't be used as a counter with it containing contradicting material for the fight such as #18 momentarily trading blows with their SSJ selves.

 

[ahill1]

Fatigue causing characters to not be able to draw out their full power is usually either verbally or visually shown if so, such as Goku's weakened Kamehamehas at points in Part 1. Not only that, but Piccolo's shock at Cell tanking it certainly isn't that of someone who was both aware of Cell having greatly powered up and being aware of their own condition.

@Captain Cadaver

Well, it was also shown when kid Goku stated Young Piccolo Daimao's Bakuretsu Maha wouldn't be as strong in his 2nd attempt since he's already wasted.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Ki control and stamina amongst Pre-23rd TB characters was vastly inferior to their Z counterparts though. For instance, Goku was later able to fire a Super Kamehameha far stronger than the Bakurikimaha against Piccolo's reincarnation without being fatigued, and Piccolo was near enough equal to his stamina at that time.

 

[VampireWicked]

Goku loses badly

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If we're to believe the Gekiretsu Kodan is more powerful than the Makankosappo and Toriyama didn't retcon the amplification of it, then yes. That, and it's a lot more difficult numerically to have the Base Saiyans be above #18 without such unless having some even less necessary bloat for characters later in the Cell Arc or using something less than 50x for the SSJ multiplier.

That’s not true. I don’t see any bloat in keeping all the tanks even rather than making Cell’s advantage over Piccolo multifold while keeping Super Vegeta over half of Cell’s power, for example.


Piccolo: 1
Imperfect Cell: 2
Semi Perfect Cell: 4
FP Semi Cell: 5-6
Super Vegeta: 8
Perfect Cell: 16
SSJ Goku (50%): 20
FPSSJ Goku: 40
FPSSJ Gohan: 50

A 2x gap is the common standard for tanking and it’s supported by Daizenshuu, so I don’t think it’s bloated.

I think the mere fact blasts have to be improved the stronger they get means their amplification is closer to addition than multiplication. A 2x boost isn’t puny by any means, but 500 units for someone in the hundreds of millions? That’s definitely ass.