Android 18 vs Kaioshin

[ahill1]

The author had amnesia, therefore Shin had a complete memory wipe. Shin has zero memory of it and the way he reacted to it shouldn't be a factor, it might as well be two different people.

Well, out of Universe I agree there was a change of heart regarding Shin. It's not like Toriyama had a terrible memory to not even remember Shin seeing SSJ2 a couple chapters ago, he had Shin mentioning it in the Yakon fight A change of direction seems more plausible. Given that, my in-universe way to rationalize that is Shin having extreme worries that didn't speak to his strength, but to a weakness due to the horror he felt about Boo, hence his different reactions.

But overall, I don't think there's a definitive answer. I think both are valid interpretations and takes of a mess that part was. I've no problems with whoever thinks Shin is very weak too... Since he was portrayed like a **** in the spaceship.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The problem with your interpretation is that it's outdated. The author moved on from whatever previously conceived notion you expected. Shin is piss weak. Piccolo is piss weak. It is what it is. Gohan is not a Super Saiyan 2 vs Dabura. The events of the Budokai and their logical progression do not change what happened on Badibi's ship.

You need to let the later work override the newer work. Even if you prefer to earlier work. That's the problem you are having, you are sticking to your personal preference instead of going with the author.

The author would not agree with your stance, so why keep it?

 

[ahill1]

Sure P, you live with Toriyama after all.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Sure P, you live with Toriyama after all.

Authors create stories. Stories have narratives. Narratives change. Reading comprehension is all that required to understand these narratives.

You are going off of the old narrative, the new one clearly goes against your point of view.

The Budokai implications are not upheld later on. We thought Piccolo was strong at the CG, turns out he's not. We thought Kaioshin was a beast at the Budokai, turns out he's not. We thought Gohan would be a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, turns out he's not.

The author poorly switched the narrative, yet it still happened.

 

[SIAD]

@Power Level Guy

Why do you say that Gohan was not SSJ2? I feel like there is no definitive answer.

Do you think Piccolo in M9 is stronger than in the Cannon?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Why do you say that Gohan was not SSJ2? I feel like there is no definitive answer.

Well Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai. We have definitive proof he's only a Super Saiyan against Dabura.

The best proof to look at is how Majin Vegeta is treated besides the clearly drawn art for Gohan as well.

Do you think Piccolo in M9 is stronger than in the Cannon?

TOEI Haxxed Piccolo is Cell Jr level if not higher. No doubt he's stronger in the movies I'd say.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We have definitive proof that Gohan was a SSJ2. We don't have definitive proof that Piccolo is weaker than Base Saiyans.

 

[Power Level Guy]

We have definitive proof that Gohan was a SSJ2.

Against Dabura?

We don't have definitive proof that Piccolo is weaker than Base Saiyans.

Piccolo gets tanked by Tagoma. Base Gohan fights well against Tagoma.

 

[Dragon Ball Master]

Lol base Saiyans are < Freeza as proven by Beerus'. How tf is he strong than Piccolo? That's being against author intent. Take what the author said in the movie. That's why your power level list had many flaws, ignoring direct statements and implications.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Lol base Saiyans are < Freeza as proven by Beerus'. How tf is he strong than Piccolo? That's being against author intent. Take what the author said in the movie. That's why your power level list had many flaws, ignoring direct statements and implications.

By that measure, Base Vegeta > Piccolo is proven at the 25th Budokai.

 

[Dragon Ball Master]

By that measure, Base Vegeta > Piccolo is proven at the 25th Budokai.

No, Beerus said the opposite. Vegeta is arrogant.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No, Beerus said the opposite. Vegeta is arrogant.

Beerus is goading Goku into transforming. Vegeta is accurate.

Gohan's suggestion also suggests Base Gohan > Piccolo at the Budokai.

 

[Dragon Ball Master]

That's assumption. You shouldn't assume what the author meant. Beerus said that. Gohan doesn't say he will win.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That's assumption. You shouldn't assume what the author meant. Beerus said that. Gohan doesn't say he will win.

Gohan intends to win. His mother is broke and needs money. He wouldn't be putting himself in a situation that he couldn't win in. The narrative is that the Saiyans chance of victory is assured, so there's no need for them to transform, since transformations warrant the same boosts, and their superiority over everyone else assures victory.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta is full hot air. Kaio said Beerus was right. Gohan put himself in a no win situation the moment he invited Vegeta, and it’s not like Picoclo would keep the cash.

Against Dabura?

Yep. Daizenshuu 7 is as straightforward as it gets.

Piccolo gets tanked by Tagoma. Base Gohan fights well against Tagoma.

Then Base Gohan fights evenly with Piccolo, who almost beat Frost. Super has no power scaling.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yep. Daizenshuu 7 is as straightforward as it gets.

Except when it contradict itself and says Gohan was a Super Saiyan.

Then Base Gohan fights evenly with Piccolo, who almost beat Frost. Super has no power scaling.

And that would mean Piccolo got stronger.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Except when it contradict itself and says Gohan was a Super Saiyan.

Affirmation > Omission.

I don’t really think Gohan was a SSJ2, but to say only one side is flat out wrong.

And that would mean Piccolo got stronger.

Stronger doing nothing from one day to another? He’s Boo Saga base level in one episode, Post RoF base level in the next.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Affirmation > Omission.

This wasn't an omission. Gohan has been stated to have used Super Saiyan against Dabura in the guidebook.

Stronger doing nothing from one day to another? He’s Boo Saga base level in one episode, Post RoF base level in the next.

Indeed. Your desire to make things make sense do not change the facts.