Another perspective on kid Gohan's rage boost.

[ahill1]

It could be that the anger Gohan got in the CGs allowed him to fully tap into the potential of SSJ2, utilizing it to its utmost capacity, with the SSJ2 transformation there and its multiplier being the peak of Gohan's rage...

... While in the Boo saga, his lack of intense anger as a driving force and lack of training meant not being able to access the full power of SSJ2 as a whole... Not necessarily implying he went beyond SSJ2 in the CGs, but Boo saga Gohan's ability to harness the full SSJ2 power was diminished by his lack of training and emotional state. Something like:

-- Cell Games --

MSSJ Gohan : 100
--- SSJ2 : 200

--- Boo saga ---

MSSJ Gohan : 88
--- SSJ2 : 133
---- if enraged : 180

Could it also be possible that, like highlighted in the Daizenshuu, the power loss Gohan got pertained to his SSJ2, while in his other states despite getting rusty, he didn't lose power? Thus:

--- Boo saga ---

MSSJ Gohan : 100
--- SSJ2 : 150

With his lack of rage keeping him from access the full potential of SSJ2 like in the Cell Games and getting the full multiplier, while his other states remained as powerful... Though SSJ2 wasn't easy to access and hadn't been mastered, hence lack of training while not reflecting in the other states, still reflecting in the overall power of SSJ2, not that it was a stronger state in the CGs, but a weaker version in the Boo saga.

I think Gohan weakening in all states but it being more visible in SSJ2, with SSJ2 getting the full multiplier in the CGs and a lesser one in the Boo saga is totally possible... But still, I'm considering what to think of the idea of his lower states all remaining the same and his weaker SSJ2 being the source of the big power loss. It could help with Gohan wanting to win the tournament and having confidence for example while knowing Vegeta is confident to fight an improved from CGs Goku... If he were at CGs Goku's level in base and SSJ, I think Vegeta's demeanor could be a red flag that he wouldn't stand a chance already, but he thinks getting back into shape would make him a candidate for winning, which makes sense if he retained his kid's powers sans in SSJ2.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Super Saiyan Kid Gohan > Super Saiyan Teen Gohan is stated by Vegeta when Gohan fights Dabura.

 

[ahill1]

Super Saiyan Kid Gohan > Super Saiyan Teen Gohan is stated by Vegeta when Gohan fights Dabura.

That's if Gohan was a SSJ1. Even if he were, it could mean kid Gohan, overall, was stronger. If his SSJ2 wasn't as strong as it could be and then later he couldn't even access SSJ2, then it makes sense for kid > teen to hold true whatever state Gohan was in and whether his SSJ there was ~ SSJ Kid imo. The point it, overall, kid was stronger.

 

[Hector]

Gohan didn't get weaker in Base/SSJ. It makes no sense for chi to atrophize. By that logic, people such as Freeza and Buu should get weaker too. If anything, Base/SSJ Gohan should be stronger seven years after the Cell Games just because he grew from childhood into adulthood.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan didn't get weaker in Base/SSJ. It makes no sense for chi to atrophize. By that logic, people such as Freeza and Buu should get weaker too. If anything, Base/SSJ Gohan should be stronger seven years after the Cell Games just because he grew from childhood into adulthood.

Well, at least in the manga we had examples of characters getting weaker from lack of training like Roshi in the original manga, right? Even if old age got him a little, he is physically fit enough for age to affect, no?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan didn't get weaker in Base/SSJ. It makes no sense for chi to atrophize

What about RoF Gohan?

 

[Power Level Guy]

That's if Gohan was a SSJ1. Even if he were, it could mean kid Gohan, overall, was stronger. If his SSJ2 wasn't as strong as it could be and then later he couldn't even access SSJ2, then it makes sense for kid > teen to hold true whatever state Gohan was in and whether his SSJ there was ~ SSJ Kid imo. The point it, overall, kid was stronger.

The dialogue implies it's a one to one issue. Gohan is not winning because he's lost power.

He's no longer as strong as he was before. Via rage and loss of ki I'd imagine.

 

[Hector]

What about RoF Gohan?

He lost immediate access to his mystic form and needed to train to reaccess it.

 

[Hector]

Well, at least in the manga we had examples of characters getting weaker from lack of training like Roshi in the original manga, right? Even if old age got him a little, he is physically fit enough for age to affect, no?

It was implied in some statements that Roshi kept most of his youth's power but could access it only in his buffed form.

 

[Power Level Guy]

He lost immediate access to his mystic form and needed to train to reaccess it.

RoF Base/SSJ Gohan are super weak brother.

It was implied in some statements that Roshi kept most of his youth's power but could access it only in his buffed form.

Roshi is tremendously weaker.

 

[ahill1]

The dialogue implies it's a one to one issue. Gohan is not winning because he's lost power.

He's no longer as strong as he was before. Via rage and loss of ki I'd imagine.

He has lost power when he could no longer access SSJ2 and even when he did, he was way weaker than kid's version of it. That's losing power and not being as strong as his kid self. It's not like Vegeta specifically singled out the SSJ state and stated Gohan was also weaker in it.

 

[Hector]

RoF Base/SSJ Gohan are super weak brother.

Remind me which opponents he fought.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Remind me which opponents he fought.

Freeza's army, Shisami, Freeza.

 

[ahill1]

When seeing base Gohan in the Boo saga, Vegeta stated his body was getting softened, and that he should train. That was more a comment regarding his physical attribute that relates more to battle readiness and reflexes imo, which was precisely what he tried to address firstly training with Goten, getting that shape again. That doesn't necessarily equal power loss, which was only blatantly stated when Vegeta saw Gohan as a SSJ2 vs Kibito... Which to me highlights a difference, between a body lack of readiness but without necessarily a drop in chi, but a state in which kid Gohan drew more power with anger and one which teen Gohan had no mastery of, took a while to reach it and couldn't get the most out of it. In think that coupled with the fact Gohan kept confident in winning the tournament despite likely assuming Vegeta far surpassed CGs Goku, and that Goku kept his training up there too... Makes the idea of teen = kid except in SSJ2 very doable to me overall, with the Daizenshuu backing it saying Gohan's power didn't change when talking about his base state, but when addressing his SSJ2, noticing that due to lack of training and not drawing power from anger, he wasn't the same power as before. Not passing it as fact, it's just a possibility which I think has a solid basis for.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta isn't sensing Base Gohan's ki, he's making his assumptions based off of looks.

They also aren't making the assumption that Super Saiyan Gohan at the Budokai is at full power, not until he goes Super Saiyan 2 does Vegeta seem to put it all together.

If Gohan is a Super Saiyan against Dabura, Vegeta's comments are directly about his Super Saiyan power.

The Daizenshuu is wrong, Gohan clearly has lost power in other forms besides his Super Saiyan 2 state.

This is an idea repeated in Super as well, RoF Gohan lost power in Base and Super Saiyan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it's possible ahill, but I think that's only a bit of complication for the sake of the Daizenshuu.

@Power Level Guy doesn't Super/RoF only say Gohan lost Ultimate? That could very well be Post Z Sword Gohan's power.

 

[Hector]

Freeza's army, Shisami, Freeza.

OK, in which of those fights was it implied that, in Base/SSJ, he was weaker than his Post Z-Sword self?

 

[Power Level Guy]

OK, in which of those fights was it implied that, in Base/SSJ, he was weaker than his Post Z-Sword self?

All, he’s gotten weaker, he has zero muscle mass.

 

[Hector]

All, he’s gotten weaker, he has zero muscle mass.

Yeah, it was sad how DBS reduced Gohan to that. One of the reasons I hate Super. But according to the cannonicity established by the original work, I see no reason to suppose Gohan lost power in his Base/SSJ forms during the 7-year gap.

 

[SSJ2]

All, he’s gotten weaker, he has zero muscle mass.