Are Base Saiyans (Buu Saga) > Ssj2 Gohan from the 25th Budokai?

[CroMagnumDVH]

Just kinda stepped on this so Imma mention it. This is just an example of the pieces of evidences I stepped in regarding this issue and I'm feeling like discussing it with people

As we already know, Gohan's Ki filled almost half of the amount of energy needed to revive Buu:

In this same scan Dabura says that the energy from the 3 Saiyans (Goku, Gohan and Vegeta) will be enough to fill the other half. Meaning Base Saiyans' energies are relative to Ssj2 Gohan at the very bottom least.

The energy Spopovitch and Yamu took from Gohan could be even more than what Gohan showed to Kibito and the others since they took the energy hidden inside Gohan anyways. At that time Dabura wasn't aware of Super Saiyans and he even underestimated them in his head to Pui Pui's level, yet he still considers them powerful enough that they'd fill the second half.

There are many supports regarding this issue, so it's plausible to me despite the push in this.

Thoughts?

 

[Papasmurf]

Sounds like another crackpot theory kids nerfers would use to ensure the adults are 100x+ stronger than the kids

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Sounds like another crackpot theory kids nerfers would use to ensure the adults are 100x+ stronger than the kids

Not really. This isn't a theory if there's something supporting it. And if this calls me a kids nerfer, then that means me saying Kids > Ssj Goku Cell Games Saga is me nerfing despite believing this

 

[Papasmurf]

The whole BAbidi segment of the Boo arc makes no sense. If SSJ2 Gohan's powa is such that it's still held in high regard with Kaioshit remembering it was really hard to hold, why on earth is some trash nigga who base Vegeta beat without breaking a sweat considered sufficient enough of a threat to fill up the rest of Boo's meter? And why does Piccolo still use that gohan as a measuring stick to guage fat Boo's threat by stating even Gohan lost to Boo? It's because Toriyama was in the mindset of just writing a really bad stage by stage fighting game and just didn't care for consistency.

It's just easier to accept the whole 3 base Saiyans can fill up the rest of Boo's meter thing as one dumb plot hole and have Gohan as strong as he's suggested- significantly weaker than his CG self and SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, but not by so much that he's weaker than their base selves lol.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

The whole BAbidi segment of the Boo arc makes no sense. If SSJ2 Gohan's powa is such that it's still held in high regard with Kaioshit remembering it was really hard to hold, why on earth is some trash nigga who base Vegeta beat without breaking a sweat considered sufficient enough of a threat to fill up the rest of Boo's meter? And why does Piccolo still use that gohan as a measuring stick to guage fat Boo's threat by stating even Gohan lost to Boo? It's because Toriyama was in the mindset of just writing a really bad stage by stage fighting game and just didn't care for consistency.

It's just easier to accept the whole 3 base Saiyans can fill up the rest of Boo's meter thing as one dumb plot hole and have Gohan as strong as he's suggested- significantly weaker than his CG self and SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, but not by so much that he's weaker than their base selves lol.

From what I'm seeing here, you're just supporting this case all the more. You're saying this and that and supporting it, but because it seems so high out there you claim it's wrong. That's Argument from incredulity. You're saying it's wrong because it's something you can't imagine normally.

I can see why it's easier, but that doesn't mean we should bash the scaling due to its complexity ._. It's a writing matter and we cannot do anything about it other than accept it as it is. Cell Games Ssj2 Gohan > Ssj2 Gohan Buu Saga, however Ssj Gohan Buu Saga 25th Budokai could be argued to be equivalent to his Cell Games counterpart and that Ssj2 transformation from the Cell Games is superior to the Regular multiplier. So yeah, just like I said at the start

 

[Void]

You can make the argument, but it's not something I feel is really supported by the narrative. The Boo arc is just full of sloppy writing. Toriyama himself said he wrote the arc 'by the seat of his pants.' There wasn't much thought put into it. Taking Super into account it's definitely not supported.

 

[GSM123]

On the same scan Babidi asks if :bitch and Yamu got energy from hundrends of humans, when in reality it would take at least billions of humans to get into SSJ2 Gohan's level. Babidi and Dabra clearly underestimated the power necessary to fill the meter.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

On the same scan Babidi asks if :bitch and Yamu got energy from hundrends of humans, when in reality it would take at least billions of humans to get into SSJ2 Gohan's level. Babidi and Dabra clearly underestimated the power necessary to fill the meter.

It's not that they underestimated the energy to that extent at all, in fact there's no proof to it. Akira was never specific at his picking of quantities. His measures were never accurate and were always so surfaced. Regardless of the writing problem, cell by absorbing hundreds of humans surpassed Piccolo's ever expectations and Android 17 as well despite having infinite stamina and a never depleting power.

Also, the Ki from all humans > Ssj3 Goku, so that really isn't a good argument since Buu Saga's quantifying of human power is over the place

 

[Flame]

No. Gohan is fighting even with a guy comparable to Perfect Cell. Their super saiyan 2 boost would have to be almost non-existant for that to even be possible based on how close they're supposed to be to SS2 Gohan (CG) in their SS2 state.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

No. Gohan is fighting even with a guy comparable to Perfect Cell. Their super saiyan 2 boost would have to be almost non-existant for that to even be possible based on how close they're supposed to be to SS2 Gohan (CG) in their SS2 state.

Except Ssj2 Multiplier in the cell games could very well be argued to be different than the regular Ssj2 multiplier mentioned from the Super Exciting Guide. This has multiple supports so it still counts as a plausible point.

 

[Flame]

No. Gohan is fighting even with a guy comparable to Perfect Cell. Their super saiyan 2 boost would have to be almost non-existant for that to even be possible based on how close they're supposed to be to SS2 Gohan (CG) in their SS2 state.

Except Ssj2 Multiplier in the cell games could very well be argued to be different than the regular Ssj2 multiplier mentioned from the Super Exciting Guide. This has multiple supports so it still counts as a plausible point.

I don't see why the boost would change.

 

[Six Trails]

Goku and Majin Vegeta barely surpass Kid Gohan and I don't really think Teen Gohan is over 100x weaker than Kid Gohan, so I'm gonna go with no. I truly doubt that it's what intended, though I can't really speak for the author (current Toriyama might even support it ).

 

[Papasmurf]

current Toriyama would probably read those Dabura chapters and say it isn't SSJ2 since the hair isnt long

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If you read Babidi says is that he didn't actually knew that the power which Spopo and Yamu obtained was from Gohan hence he regrets on killing them.

 

[freezamite]

Even if the Buu saga was the worst written saga of DB (in it's first compasses at least) that's never implied in what Dabra says.

A regular saiyan/hibrid (a saiyan/hibrid not born from a SSJ) has to reach the base state limit in order to be able to turn into a SSJ. In other words, the base state of a regular saiyan that has reached the SSJ state can't evolve any more through training (unless the saiyan in question stops to train and becomes weaker, then he obviously can train to reach his peak again).

So for Vegeta and Goku their base state reached it's limit much before the Cell games started and they didn't get any stronger besides new/improved SSJ forms.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

There's no such thing is limit in DB. It's just an excuse to not get stronger for a period of time.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

No. Gohan is fighting even with a guy comparable to Perfect Cell. Their super saiyan 2 boost would have to be almost non-existant for that to even be possible based on how close they're supposed to be to SS2 Gohan (CG) in their SS2 state.

Except Ssj2 Multiplier in the cell games could very well be argued to be different than the regular Ssj2 multiplier mentioned from the Super Exciting Guide. This has multiple supports so it still counts as a plausible point.

I don't see why the boost would change.

Not that the multiplier changes, rather Kid Gohan received a rage boost of some sort for multiple reasons

Even if the Buu saga was the worst written saga of DB (in it's first compasses at least) that's never implied in what Dabra says.

A regular saiyan/hibrid (a saiyan/hibrid not born from a SSJ) has to reach the base state limit in order to be able to turn into a SSJ. In other words, the base state of a regular saiyan that has reached the SSJ state can't evolve any more through training (unless the saiyan in question stops to train and becomes weaker, then he obviously can train to reach his peak again).

So for Vegeta and Goku their base state reached it's limit much before the Cell games started and they didn't get any stronger besides new/improved SSJ forms.

That's wrong. Never has Goku and the rest stopped getting stronger since they always break their limits and this is a common point that honestly can't be much argued. By that logic DBS Base Goku is as strong as his base form from the Namek Saga

 

[freezamite]

There's no such thing is limit in DB. It's just an excuse to not get stronger for a period of time.

There are "limits" in DB, as in "you can't progress in the usual way but you'll find alternatives to get stronger".

The base state limit was stated to be there and was never broken, so it was a "real" limit for the saiyans. Limit that they overcame with stronger/more polished forms of SSJ of course.

That's wrong. Never has Goku and the rest stopped getting stronger since they always break their limits and this is a common point that honestly can't be much argued. By that logic DBS Base Goku is as strong as his base form from the Namek Saga

And until the God Ritual was performed, that was the case. Breaking your current limits is something that happens in almost every shounen, but in the DB manga it's said that there's a limit to the base state that can't be broken unless you turn SSJ and that limit is respected through the whole series.
You never see base Goku or base Vegeta increasing their strength once they become SSJ (all their power ups come from evolving the SSJ form), while we saw Gohan doing it again in the Bu saga after he got weak due to his lack of training.

The base state limit is what defined the SSJ forms and how a regular saiyan/hibrid could reach it, and it had implications like the zenkai power disappearing for all the saiyans once they reached it.

 

[Flame]

Except Ssj2 Multiplier in the cell games could very well be argued to be different than the regular Ssj2 multiplier mentioned from the Super Exciting Guide. This has multiple supports so it still counts as a plausible point.

I don't see why the boost would change.

Not that the multiplier changes, rather Kid Gohan received a rage boost of some sort for multiple reasons

His rage boost is Super Saiyan 2.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

And until the God Ritual was performed, that was the case. Breaking your current limits is something that happens in almost every shounen, but in the DB manga it's said that there's a limit to the base state that can't be broken unless you turn SSJ and that limit is respected through the whole series.
You never see base Goku or base Vegeta increasing their strength once they become SSJ (all their power ups come from evolving the SSJ form), while we saw Gohan doing it again in the Bu saga after he got weak due to his lack of training.

The base state limit is what defined the SSJ forms and how a regular saiyan/hibrid could reach it, and it had implications like the zenkai power disappearing for all the saiyans once they reached it.

Can you prove that all? If you can't, then all of this is frankly irrelevant.

I don't see why the boost would change.

Not that the multiplier changes, rather Kid Gohan received a rage boost of some sort for multiple reasons

His rage boost is Super Saiyan 2.

No, the rage boost managed to push Gohan's latent potential. Latent Potential =/= Set Multiplier