Are Base Saiyans (Buu Saga) > Ssj2 Gohan from the 25th Budokai?
- Thread starter CroMagnumDVH
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Yamcha said:
Again, the rage boost concept is related to Gohan releasing his latent Potential. Latent potential =/= Ssj2 multiplier. It has many supports in fact
Also, Daizenshuu implies that Goku received a boost higher than a 50x and his power level surpassed 150,000,000 but Daizenshuu just placed an estimate of it. Despite that, Goku didn't release his Latent Potential like Gohan did so that argument doesn't work and doesn't refute the Rage Boost for Gohan.
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sei'taer said:
They sensed Goku and the rest, and were able to tell who each one is at the very least and distinguished between the rest and Kaioshin and Kibito.
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The very definition of what's a super saiyan puts a limit on the base state (the SSJ is described as "the saiyan that surpasses the limits that a regular saiyan, no matter how gifted or how hard he trains, can ever surpass".CroMagnumDVH said:
Then you have Vegeta speaking of them again when he turns SSJ for the first time. He specifically says that he reached a point where he couldn't progress no matter how much he trained (that's what caused the rage boost that allowed him to become a SSJ in fact).
This was further demonstrated with the zenkais disappearing for everyone except for Cell.
So of course I can prove it. It's said multiple times and there is not a single feat in the manga that contradicts it (and a couple of feats to back it).
Can you prove that his power increased at all? I don't think you will be able to.
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Yamcha said:
Gohan can turn into SSjin2 fine in Boo arc yet Goku still told him to get angry in order to release his potential which indicates that Gohan's SSjin2 =/= Gohan's rage boost.
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To be fair, Toriyama retconned Gohan's SSJ2 after the tournament saga to make his lack of training more apparent. Gohan and Shin were rewritten as characters when the scenario changed from the tournament to the babidi spaceship.Fearless Instinct said:
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freezamite said:
You just told me the definition of a Super Saiyan and that it increases someone's base power in total. That doesn't mean their bases don't get stronger. So you still didn't prove your point
You said there are statements and feats, but You didn't show me any.
Thar's not the definition of a Super Saiyan anyway. It's not "never to be surpassed no matter what" in base. This is the definition of a Super Saiyan from Daizenshuu:
Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.
Anime: In the anime, the Super Saiya-jin's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiya-jin Broli debuted in “Burn Up!! A Close – Intense – Super-Fierce Battle” and appeared in 3 movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiya-jin, which the legend says will “Love destruction and slaughter” (Daizenshuu 6, p.106).
Non of it says what you claimed. Base Goku Buu Saga > Kaioshin > Frieza Namek Saga <= Ssj Goku Namek Saga. There are many faults with your argument given its speculative matter
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His bases not getting stronger is proved multiple times:CroMagnumDVH said:
1. You won't be able to find a single feat demonstrating that their bases increased.
2. Vegeta directly tells you this was the case when he turned SSJ for the first time. No matter how hard he trained, his power didn't increase at all.
3. It's in the very definition of what's a SSJ, even that guide you've quoted tells you this is the case:
If the SSJ surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyajin, that means that regular Saiyajin have limits and that those limits will never reach the power of even the weakest SSJ.
4. You have that feat from the Bu saga where Goku in his base state has a limit of being able to lift 40 tons of weight which is perfectly coherent with his strength when he became a SSJ for the first time (300k to 400k units).
That's plain wrong for multiple reasons.CroMagnumDVH said:
Firstly, Freezer Namek Saga >>>>>> SSJ Goku Namek Saga. Remember that Freezer had only a fraction of his strength when Goku turned into a SSJ, and despite that he managed to fight with him at equal terms (he only lost because of his stamina problems).
Secondly, Kaioshin was rewritten once in the Babidi saga. In other words, the Kaiohshin that could defeat Freezer is the same KaiohShin that made a big impression on Goku, made Piccolo surrender even without fighting and managed to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan.
Base Goku wasn't above him by any means. It's just that he was turned into a comical/useless character afterwards.
The same happened with Gohan btw. He went from SSJ2 to FPSSJ.
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No offense, but this is the worst argument I have ever seen, where you're trying to imply that Base Goku never gets stronger
Wow calm down. That was never the case. What the heck are you on about?
First of all, the Super Saiyan Multiplier is a 50x Base:
Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.
Anime: In the anime, the Super Saiya-jin's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiya-jin Broli debuted in “Burn Up!! A Close – Intense – Super-Fierce Battle” and appeared in 3 movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiya-jin, which the legend says will “Love destruction and slaughter” (Daizenshuu 6, p.106).
So basically Super Saiyan form increases a person's power by 50x his base form. So BY YOUR LOGIC Super Saiyan Goku never got stronger.
Despite having Yardrat Goku FAR above His Namek Saga counterpart.
Vegeta in base form got stronger for example. In his Super Saiyan form after ROSAT, he could fight with Cell WITHOUT grade 2 Super Saiyan:
We already know that a Super Saiyan form is a set multiplier, and Super Saiyan Vegeta was even inferior to Android 18 in every possible way. So it goes like this:
Pre ROSAT Base Vegeta: 2
Pre ROSAT Ssj Vegeta: 100
Android 18: 200
Post ROSAT Ssj Vegeta: 400
Therefore Post ROSAT Base Vegeta = 8
Something similar to this analogy. Saying Base forms don't get stronger is retarded since Goku and Vegeta have been training base forms ever since.
or are you implying that Base Goku in DBS is weaker than his Namek Saga counterpart? how much wrong can you be to claim this? These are VERY bitty statements in fact. Even then there's far more.
Base Goten and Trunks =< Android 18 >>>> Namek Saga Frieza << Ssj Goku Namek Saga
Let's look at Android 18 vs the kids
The fight commences over here.
Android 18 doesn't know of them being the kids thus she could start put holding back
Although this could easily differ when we're talking about the one who dashed put to the other person:
Goten and Trunks both dashed to her and she took her stance.
Android 18 already noted his power:
She clearly respects the performance and calls it "powerful". Coming from Android 18 talking to her head with serious look, she would have judged their abnormality in their power. Besides, that was one of the kids who did that (trunks) casually in base form.
For now we got:
Android 18 >=< Base Kids (individually)
They're keeping up well with Android 18. Although there a huge problem
Goten CAN'T see well, thus leg movements are completely sick. It's more like Trunks is the only one giving it his best. Goten is not even properly fighting. Base Trunks >=< Android 18.
They both represent 1 of them. Goten is only using his legs while trunks is using his arms. Neither of them are you their entire bodies at well, this is gives them a clear nerf in even both of their powers.
Kids (individually) >=< Android 18.
One could say that's even less than an entire power of a base kid
Trunks says "it's too hard to move". Both Goten and Trunks aren't fighting at their peak and fail to use their powers at their will. Both of them aren't even giving off the usual powers they have.
Given that they barely have skills, which was noted in DBS, we can know for sure that they aren't putting out power at all. Thus android 18 gets a hit
Base Kids (Individually) >=< Android 18
Evidence of Goten not being able to even see. Android 18 being an Android can't even be regularly sensed, which poses the question of how much Goten was forced to be nerfed against her. Trunks is only using his arms. Yet they're keeping up
Android 18 could be holding back but for now we've got nothing to prove
Base Trunks or Goten > Android 18
Android 18 shoots a beam at them. Goten can't see, and trunks can't use his body or simultaneously react on him own, forcing him to tell Goten to Fly.
We can clearly see how they're not even using portions of their real power.
Base Kids individually > Android 18
They decide to go Ssj because although can't move properly, they believe a Ssj would end it quick despite their inability to use most if their bodies
Ssj kids individually >>>> Android 18
Android 18 is quite surprised of their power although they barely released any power to begin with.
They transform.
Trunks says they're at a disadvantage. Although the disadvantage was mainly related to the costume which is getting in their way. It's as if trunks is only fighting using his hands while sitting. Given the fact that he has no Ki skills, it would be ridiculous to fight using barely any of their power, yet they kept up.
Goten is kicking anywhere and barely. He's mostly flying the body around.
Trunks thinks of Throwing a ki blast but they're scared of that blast accidentally killing her.
Trunks is confident she won't die though, especially when he can control his Ki blasts
Trunks doesn't throw the blast at full power at all.
Android 18 barely reacts and then dodges it even though that's barely anywhere near their power.
Android 18 sweats the shit out although that was partly their power. That was one kid.
Android 18 then decides to finish this quickly:
This doesn't imply she's superior. She just wants to make them get disqualified by exposing them, which she did by throwing a destructo disk.
She knows her HUGE inferiority and clearly saw that she can't beat them, and knew that they were at a disadvantage due to being inside that costume.
Android 18 questioning their powers implies that she doesn't know how powerful they originally are.
Ssj Trunks or Goten (individually) >>>>>> Android 18 >= Base Kids
This is supported in Dragon Ball Kai by how they're showcased to fight Android 18
Unless you want to claim that Base kids > Ssj Namek Saga Goku then that's another next level shit.
End of Z BASE Goku is Stronger than Kid Buu. So your argument is utterly invalid and null.
There are FAR MORE PROOF than this, but This is more than enough
You still haven't provided any scan for this.
WHERE does it say that Base forms can't get any stronger? The only thing this says is that the limit of a Super Saiyan is higher than base forms, and that's just a reference to their potential.
I guess Tournament of Power Goku base form is weaker than Namek Saga Frieza?
That's why limits are always being broken in the show. This statement can also be a form of inconsistency from Daizenshuu
Saiyans have no limits:
There's no specific amount to how much they grow stronger. This puts your argument down.
Whaaat? NANI? How does this prove that Base Saiyans never get stronger?? This is irrelevant. Goku's base limit was just a couple of tons and he needed Ssj to carry 40 tons. Nothing says Base Goku isn't above his Namek Saga Counterpart.
If Goku doesn't get stronger then he wouldn't train at all. What kind of logic is that? Sorry but this is utterly irrelevant
No that's utterly wrong and fallacious. Goku's Kaioken x20 almost equalled Half of Frieza's power.
Goku's base form on Namek Saga has a power level of 3,000,000
3,000,000 × 20 = 60,000,000
That's 50% Frieza's full power:
He was fully healed back then so your argument falls apart since it's just speculative matter. Frieza goes full power and Goku goes Ssj, and Goku is shown to be above Frieza. 150,000,000 (Goku) > 120,000,000 (Frieza)
Daizenshuu 2 says that Goku has "overwhelming power" in comparison to Frieza and one that is superior to his:
Daizenshuu 2 also says that Goku's strength COMPLETELY overwhelms Frieza's power:
Daizenshuu 7 in the history part says that Frieza was overwhelmed by Goku's power. The Battles part says that EVEN AT FULL POWER he was weaker than Ssj Goku:
What?!?!?!?!? He was never rewritten at all. Kaioshin is weaker than Base Goku. Who said Base Goku isn't above Ssj2 Gohan from the Tournament? Goham after Kibito healed him was stated to have gotten stronger above even Piccolo In base form
Kaioshin is NOT EQUAL to Base Gohan, just because he was able to stop him doesn't mean so.
Kaioshin used "Paralysis Arts". Sure it is stronger when it comes to paralyzing a character the better a character controls it, which is hinted in Daizenshuu by referencing Kaioshin's ability as being "so powerful" compared to the other users:
Daizenshuu 4 hinting it:
Daizenshuu 7 (Raw Japanese Page):
Daizenshuu 7 in French mentioning it:
Daizenshuu 7 Translation:
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/aUjXVjUBwSK
Basically, It can be resisted and not resisted regardless, depending on the character's ability. Nappa resisted Chaozu's Paralysis Art:
Those same abilities worked on Base Form Goku when he was going to fight Beerus as Monaka:
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/RVh1eSSLq3r
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/3PoNEK4Xn1t
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/XAj4BCwAXxH
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/evjbeDeWHnM
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/574hbby6hWs
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/RSbY3RfxvpF
So it is more related to resistance rather than power, in general. It's true with high power you can break free but even then that's not necessarily true.
Base Goku is above him and this is shown. "Comical" is an excuse rather than anything. Gohan was never turned from Ssj2 to FPSsj. He fought Dabura using Ssj2 and this is a fact if anything else.
So you still need to prove your point
freezamite said:
Wow calm down. That was never the case. What the heck are you on about?
First of all, the Super Saiyan Multiplier is a 50x Base:
Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.
Anime: In the anime, the Super Saiya-jin's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiya-jin Broli debuted in “Burn Up!! A Close – Intense – Super-Fierce Battle” and appeared in 3 movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiya-jin, which the legend says will “Love destruction and slaughter” (Daizenshuu 6, p.106).
So basically Super Saiyan form increases a person's power by 50x his base form. So BY YOUR LOGIC Super Saiyan Goku never got stronger.
Despite having Yardrat Goku FAR above His Namek Saga counterpart.
Vegeta in base form got stronger for example. In his Super Saiyan form after ROSAT, he could fight with Cell WITHOUT grade 2 Super Saiyan:
We already know that a Super Saiyan form is a set multiplier, and Super Saiyan Vegeta was even inferior to Android 18 in every possible way. So it goes like this:
Pre ROSAT Base Vegeta: 2
Pre ROSAT Ssj Vegeta: 100
Android 18: 200
Post ROSAT Ssj Vegeta: 400
Therefore Post ROSAT Base Vegeta = 8
Something similar to this analogy. Saying Base forms don't get stronger is retarded since Goku and Vegeta have been training base forms ever since.
or are you implying that Base Goku in DBS is weaker than his Namek Saga counterpart? how much wrong can you be to claim this? These are VERY bitty statements in fact. Even then there's far more.
Base Goten and Trunks =< Android 18 >>>> Namek Saga Frieza << Ssj Goku Namek Saga
Let's look at Android 18 vs the kids
The fight commences over here.
Android 18 doesn't know of them being the kids thus she could start put holding back
Although this could easily differ when we're talking about the one who dashed put to the other person:
Goten and Trunks both dashed to her and she took her stance.
Android 18 already noted his power:
She clearly respects the performance and calls it "powerful". Coming from Android 18 talking to her head with serious look, she would have judged their abnormality in their power. Besides, that was one of the kids who did that (trunks) casually in base form.
For now we got:
Android 18 >=< Base Kids (individually)
They're keeping up well with Android 18. Although there a huge problem
Goten CAN'T see well, thus leg movements are completely sick. It's more like Trunks is the only one giving it his best. Goten is not even properly fighting. Base Trunks >=< Android 18.
They both represent 1 of them. Goten is only using his legs while trunks is using his arms. Neither of them are you their entire bodies at well, this is gives them a clear nerf in even both of their powers.
Kids (individually) >=< Android 18.
One could say that's even less than an entire power of a base kid
Trunks says "it's too hard to move". Both Goten and Trunks aren't fighting at their peak and fail to use their powers at their will. Both of them aren't even giving off the usual powers they have.
Given that they barely have skills, which was noted in DBS, we can know for sure that they aren't putting out power at all. Thus android 18 gets a hit
Base Kids (Individually) >=< Android 18
Evidence of Goten not being able to even see. Android 18 being an Android can't even be regularly sensed, which poses the question of how much Goten was forced to be nerfed against her. Trunks is only using his arms. Yet they're keeping up
Android 18 could be holding back but for now we've got nothing to prove
Base Trunks or Goten > Android 18
Android 18 shoots a beam at them. Goten can't see, and trunks can't use his body or simultaneously react on him own, forcing him to tell Goten to Fly.
We can clearly see how they're not even using portions of their real power.
Base Kids individually > Android 18
They decide to go Ssj because although can't move properly, they believe a Ssj would end it quick despite their inability to use most if their bodies
Ssj kids individually >>>> Android 18
Android 18 is quite surprised of their power although they barely released any power to begin with.
They transform.
Trunks says they're at a disadvantage. Although the disadvantage was mainly related to the costume which is getting in their way. It's as if trunks is only fighting using his hands while sitting. Given the fact that he has no Ki skills, it would be ridiculous to fight using barely any of their power, yet they kept up.
Goten is kicking anywhere and barely. He's mostly flying the body around.
Trunks thinks of Throwing a ki blast but they're scared of that blast accidentally killing her.
Trunks is confident she won't die though, especially when he can control his Ki blasts
Trunks doesn't throw the blast at full power at all.
Android 18 barely reacts and then dodges it even though that's barely anywhere near their power.
Android 18 sweats the shit out although that was partly their power. That was one kid.
Android 18 then decides to finish this quickly:
This doesn't imply she's superior. She just wants to make them get disqualified by exposing them, which she did by throwing a destructo disk.
She knows her HUGE inferiority and clearly saw that she can't beat them, and knew that they were at a disadvantage due to being inside that costume.
Android 18 questioning their powers implies that she doesn't know how powerful they originally are.
Ssj Trunks or Goten (individually) >>>>>> Android 18 >= Base Kids
This is supported in Dragon Ball Kai by how they're showcased to fight Android 18
Unless you want to claim that Base kids > Ssj Namek Saga Goku then that's another next level shit.
End of Z BASE Goku is Stronger than Kid Buu. So your argument is utterly invalid and null.
There are FAR MORE PROOF than this, but This is more than enough
You still haven't provided any scan for this.
WHERE does it say that Base forms can't get any stronger? The only thing this says is that the limit of a Super Saiyan is higher than base forms, and that's just a reference to their potential.
I guess Tournament of Power Goku base form is weaker than Namek Saga Frieza?
That's why limits are always being broken in the show. This statement can also be a form of inconsistency from Daizenshuu
Saiyans have no limits:
There's no specific amount to how much they grow stronger. This puts your argument down.
Whaaat? NANI? How does this prove that Base Saiyans never get stronger?? This is irrelevant. Goku's base limit was just a couple of tons and he needed Ssj to carry 40 tons. Nothing says Base Goku isn't above his Namek Saga Counterpart.
If Goku doesn't get stronger then he wouldn't train at all. What kind of logic is that? Sorry but this is utterly irrelevant
No that's utterly wrong and fallacious. Goku's Kaioken x20 almost equalled Half of Frieza's power.
Goku's base form on Namek Saga has a power level of 3,000,000
3,000,000 × 20 = 60,000,000
That's 50% Frieza's full power:
He was fully healed back then so your argument falls apart since it's just speculative matter. Frieza goes full power and Goku goes Ssj, and Goku is shown to be above Frieza. 150,000,000 (Goku) > 120,000,000 (Frieza)
Daizenshuu 2 says that Goku has "overwhelming power" in comparison to Frieza and one that is superior to his:
Daizenshuu 2 also says that Goku's strength COMPLETELY overwhelms Frieza's power:
Daizenshuu 7 in the history part says that Frieza was overwhelmed by Goku's power. The Battles part says that EVEN AT FULL POWER he was weaker than Ssj Goku:
What?!?!?!?!? He was never rewritten at all. Kaioshin is weaker than Base Goku. Who said Base Goku isn't above Ssj2 Gohan from the Tournament? Goham after Kibito healed him was stated to have gotten stronger above even Piccolo In base form
Kaioshin is NOT EQUAL to Base Gohan, just because he was able to stop him doesn't mean so.
Kaioshin used "Paralysis Arts". Sure it is stronger when it comes to paralyzing a character the better a character controls it, which is hinted in Daizenshuu by referencing Kaioshin's ability as being "so powerful" compared to the other users:
Daizenshuu 4 hinting it:
Daizenshuu 7 (Raw Japanese Page):
Daizenshuu 7 in French mentioning it:
Daizenshuu 7 Translation:
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/aUjXVjUBwSK
Basically, It can be resisted and not resisted regardless, depending on the character's ability. Nappa resisted Chaozu's Paralysis Art:
Those same abilities worked on Base Form Goku when he was going to fight Beerus as Monaka:
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/RVh1eSSLq3r
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/3PoNEK4Xn1t
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/XAj4BCwAXxH
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/evjbeDeWHnM
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/574hbby6hWs
https://plus.google.com/109904308525937809864/posts/RSbY3RfxvpF
So it is more related to resistance rather than power, in general. It's true with high power you can break free but even then that's not necessarily true.
Base Goku is above him and this is shown. "Comical" is an excuse rather than anything. Gohan was never turned from Ssj2 to FPSsj. He fought Dabura using Ssj2 and this is a fact if anything else.
So you still need to prove your point
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- Messages
- 687
I'm not implying it, it's what's written in the manga (and even in some of those horribly done guides).CroMagnumDVH said:
That 50x multiplier for the SSJ is a VERY BAD interpretation of the manga from those that made those guides, and that particular aspect of the SSJ has already been debunked by the author himself.CroMagnumDVH said:
No, the SSJ is not a 50x multiplier, nor is a fixed multiplier of any sorts. The SSJ can power up, and it clearly does, because the z-warriors get better and better when it comes to mastering it's violent nature and the stress it's personality causes to the body.
Besides that, Yadrat Goku wasn't far above his Namek saga counterpart. In fact, he was just as strong as he was in Namek (he himself admited that he had only time to leart to transform at will and to learn the shunkanido).
Trunks didn't attack with all his strength and that's why Goku could block with a finger, they were more or less equals in strength.
The thing is... it's NOT.CroMagnumDVH said:
While the manga never tells anything about the base state increasing (again, you won't find a single feat or quote stating that the base state of any saiyan that has reached it's limit has increased in strength) it clearly explains how the SSJ is improved:
The SSJ violent nature causes stress to the body, so you have to get accostumed to that form. That's why Goku and Gohan spend months being SSJs the whole time.
They're not even training their base state for the majority of the time they spent on the RoSAT... those magazines are pure poison because they were made without having even a basic understanding of what was said in the manga.
Besides the fact that it was Vegeta's SSJ multiplier the one that increased (by the way, the SSJ multiplier wasn't equal even between saiyans. As I've said, it depended on the control over it's own Ki each saiyan had. So for Goku it was the highest multiplier always even when in strength he may have been equal or below to some other SSJ), those numbers aren't faithful to the manga.CroMagnumDVH said:
If Pre ROSAT SSJ Vegeta is 100, then Android 18 can't be 200. Come on, Android 18 would be at 98-102 more or less. Re-read that fight, Vegeta was as powerful as her, he lost because he lacked unlimited stamina.
I would moderate the tone of your messages if I was you. Considering that all you do is to repeat what those awful, already debunked guides say, you're in no position to disrespect anyone.CroMagnumDVH said:
Your guides are bullshit, sorry, but that's the truth. Every time Toriyama upped it's writting a notch the retardeds that wrote that shit got lost.
Since Toriyama's strong point was how he portrayed complex scenarios in very natural ways, anything those guides say about power levels that weren't directly stated in the manga is plain WRONG and contradicts the few hints we're actually given to understand the situation.
Nappa at 4000, Raditz at 1500, SSJ Goku at 150 fucking millions (and Freezer at 120 millions instead of the 12 that would perfectly fit), the 50x multiplier that EVEN THE AUTHOR (as in Toriyama himself) had to step up in an interview and tell everyone how wrong that was...
Look, read the manga, not the guides.
With that reading comprehension of yours I finally understand why you agree that much with the guides. Where do you say I imply that DBS base Goku is weaker than Namek base Goku?CroMagnumDVH said:
Why weaker exactly? He was JUST AS STRONG because he couldn't get stronger but didn't stop training like Gohan.
Uff stop it please, everything you say is wrong. Namek Saga Freezer would've beaten even SSJ Goten and Trunks if serious, let alone Android 18 that had a fraction of his power.CroMagnumDVH said:
And the worst part is SSJ Goku Namek saga above Freezer... I mean, the kids or A18 I can understand the confusion because it was a somewhat complex scenario and they were separated by dozens of chapters... but fucking Namek Goku?
SSJ Namek Goku was just as strong as a badly injured Freezer. Not only the sole fact of saying Namek Saga Freezer << SSJ Goku Namek Saga is wrong even going by what was seen in the fight, it's also wrong because it ignores the context of that fight and the state of each fighter.
If you can't understand by SSJ Goku Namek <<<<<<<<< Namek Saga Freezer re-read the manga until you grasp what the author really meant.
I won't spend a second debunking your bad analysis about the fight between A18 and the kids (which is also ignoring the whole context of the fight).
The kids were FPSSJ and that's why they clearly overpowered 18 as SSJs. Not in their base state, where they didn't get even close to be able to fight an A18 that was expecting to fight a regular human being.
No one claims this. A18 never fought against the kids at full power because she expected a human, and once they turned SSJ she went for the disqualification because she could do nothing against them.CroMagnumDVH said:
End of story.
No he fucking wasn't. Come on, can't you even understand what's being said in the manga? Ub had THE POTENTIAL to become as strong as Bu, but he didn't know even how to fly or use his ki at the most basic level.CroMagnumDVH said:
Even then, Ub overpowered base Goku while being a kid AND not knowing anything about how to properly fight.
You've proved nothing besides a very big lack of understanding on the manga.CroMagnumDVH said:
Ok, here you go then:CroMagnumDVH said:
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-63595/chapter/mrs-chapter-63938
page 11:
Vegeta: I desired nothing but to be stronger. I endured a training from hell. Then I ran into a wall, my own limits. In the rage I felt towards myself I awoke... into a Super Saiyan!
It wasn't that hard to find, it's the FIRST THING VEGETA SAYS AS A SSJ.
Are you seriously using a Vegeta that still had not reached his limits (limits THAT VEGETA HIMSELF ADMITED AFTERWARDS) to prove me wrong? Seriously? Can't you see how bad is this argument of yours?CroMagnumDVH said:WHERE does it say that Base forms can't get any stronger? The only thing this says is that the limit of a Super Saiyan is higher than base forms, and that's just a reference to their potential.
I guess Tournament of Power Goku base form is weaker than Namek Saga Frieza?
That's why limits are always being broken in the show. This statement can also be a form of inconsistency from Daizenshuu
Saiyans have no limits:
There's no specific amount to how much they grow stronger. This puts your argument down.
Where and how can anyone say that Goku's limit was 2 tons?CroMagnumDVH said:
Goku's limit was 40 tons, he resisted that even if he couldn't move, and he needed SSJ to move freely. Now it's not very difficult to see why that limit of 40 tons is coherent with what Goku was doing at Namek and the power ups he got there, but nothing more than that.
Read the manga please.
Yeah, Goku's KKx20 approached Freezer's 50% of power... which means that Goku SSJ was weaker that his KKx20 self and that the x50 mulitplier of your guides is bullshit.CroMagnumDVH said:
SSJ Goku was more or less equivalent to KKx10 Goku in terms of strength (at Namek), if you can't understand it by reading the manga at least read what the author said in an interview giving that exact same number.
If you don't understand how DB works, you can't speak about DB in the way you do (being condescending while using the shitty guides, that is).
Again, wrong from the very beginning. Goku started that fight with the KKx10 already activated, so those 3.000.000 already have the KKx10 included.CroMagnumDVH said:
Stop using the guides men, do yourself a favour.CroMagnumDVH said:
If SSJ Goku had been 150 million and 100% Freezer just 120 million then the fight would've ended IN A SINGLE BLOW.
Freezer didn't heal after he got hit by the Genkidama, and that's not a speculation, he TELLS us multiple times that his power has been affected (as it always happens in DB).
Who says that Base Goku isn't above SSJ2 Gohan you say? Come on!CroMagnumDVH said:
It's not only that he managed to paralyse SSJ2 Gohan, it's that even Goku had doubts about being able to win against him (and that was a potential SSJ3 Goku, LoL) and Piccolo (a much stronger fighter than any base saiyan) didn't even try to fight against him.CroMagnumDVH said:
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You know, you say you have the ability to report me but I can due to the tone you're using, but let's not reach that stage ok? But honesty, I've never seen someone debate this bad before. If you're going to turn sensitive mode on me, then try to calm down and understand the errors behind your arguments rather than stay hypocritical on your points. You insult me and act like some God but you say you'll report me if I do It? Nice try bud, you're not getting off the hook.
What do you mean in the Manga? You don't know the Manga more than everybody else. That's you being a total hypocrite. Horribly done Guides?
ALL GUIDES are more reliable than what you take them to be as they're all made by Akira Toriyama's staff:
Akira Toriyama even says that his staff aka Sheuisha knows more about DBZ than him and thus his words are to be taken as authority, meaning these guides are authority:
Don't disregard guides because you feel like it.
Huh? What does this has to do with it not being a set multiplier? You can't just deny guides because you feel like it. That's utterly abysmal. Guides >>>>> You. These are made by someone who has more authority than Akira Toriyama and Toriyama even says this himself by implying the difference in knowledge.
the only time they mastered the nature of a Super Saiyan is when Goku trained with Gohan in the ROSAT. However, NEVER DID THEY DO THAT BEFORE. NEVER! That's your utter speculation on the matter
evidence shows otherwise. It really does show otherwise. What you say is irrelevant if you can't prove it
You still didn't provide evidence for Vegeta's statement
and you also ignored everything in the Manga which I provided.
thanks for conceding.
Just how much do you wish to be wrong? Mecha Frieza is even stronger than Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku, yet Trunks fodderized him, and Yardrat Goku defeated trunks who released power enough to kill Mecha Frieza
Meaning he got stronger. In fact saying they're equal is utter headcanon from your part. Goku was stated to have gotten stronger and he even stopped his sword witj ome finger. Holding back or not Trunks says that this is the same sword using this same power context wise that he used to kill Frieza.
That's just you being in denial, simple. Ignoring official sources won't help you. Guides > You
I just showed you direct evidence but you obviously like to ignore these evidences because you can't handle being wrong. DON'T IGNORE. I'll take it you concede. Goku never reached his limit.
You still didn't provide any evidence for Vegeta's scan.
You still haven't shown why the multiplier is wrong
Offical Material > Your invalid opinion
If you won't show me, then That's a concession
The only time they did train their Super Saiyan form is when Goku was with Gohan. Base Forms are shown to have gotten stronger. But again, you are so blatant and disrespectful you ignore anything that debunks you. I've met so many people like you who ignore the things which debunk them. I'll take this Win, thanks for the concession as well. You're just afraid to say it
WHAT?!?!?!?! Goku was training his base form in the afterlife, so you're saying he isn't getting stronger?!?!? Despite Super Exciting Guide saying otherwise?!?!?!?!?! What do you mean poison? These poisons are better than you, and if they're poison them you're something worse
HOW CAN YOU SAY The guides are poison if they're made by people more reliable than Akira Toriyama himself? What kind of pure cancer is this? Even Akira in an interview approved that Super Saiyan is a set multiplier. Your point is INVALID if you can't prove it. Another indirect concession, thank you.
SHOW ME SCANS. I'M ASKING FOR EVIDENCE. SHOW ME WHY THE SSJ MULTIPLIER INCREASED RATHER THAN BASE. If you can't even prove that, then your entire point falls under the horseshit category.
PROVE IT. You say that you said that, but you didn't prove it. You haven't showed me ANY SINGLE evidence for it. SHOW ME, that's what I'm asking. If you can't do that, then your entire argument falls to pieces. WHAT you say is absolutely irrelevant if you can't prove it. You claim something is wrong but you have to show me why it's wrong. If you can't, then that's yet another concession
Nice try being picky. Futile though
Look who's talking, the same person who's acting hypocritically infront me and being indecent. Next time, be decent and show evidence behind your claims rather than acting hypocritically and fail to show evidence behind your claims.
Already debunked? SHOW ME NOW. NO GUIDE IS ALREADY DEBUNKED. NO GUIDE AT ALL. All of these guides are made by people who are more authoritative than Akira Toriyama and Akira himself confirms this. The fact that you fail to show evidence behind your claims show how much of a normie you are.
I'm still waiting for you to show me why they're bullshit. In your eyes they're bullshit because they debunk your hairy dirty ass and that's all. You're just a troll, you shouldn't even exist in the Dragon Ball community while claiming something as atrocious as this.
SHOW me evidence, now. Until you show me evidence of your claims, your entire stance is irrelevant and non-existent at all.
WHAT?!?!? Akira himself approved of these guides. These guides are canon and Akira approves of this
Akira Toriyama Confirms that his staff, are more knowledgeable than him in Dragon Ball Z:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/akira-toriyama-comments-super-dragon-ball-z/
Akira Toriyama checks the content that is written in Daizenshuu before hand:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-1-toriyama-intro/
"In commemoration of Dragon Ball’s happy ending, they’re putting out my complete works."
Akira Toriyama Approves that Daizenshuu includes his works.
"This first one is a special collection of “Illustrations”, or colored manga cuts. Looking at this, in a little over ten years there were many pictures that were drawn… no, that I drew. It is inexcusable how many pictures there are in here that cause even me to gag when I look at them now, but if you’d like, please look at them with a big heart."
Daizenshuu 1 includes all his illustrations. Those are his works, they are *his* work however completely shuffled or scattered.
Daizenshuu 2:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-2-toriyama-intro/
"It seems that the second of the complete works is a “story edition”."
It's a book that completely talks about the story of Akira Toriyama's in general.
"For me, having drawn the manga by the seat of my pants, to have it called a “story” is only embarrassing. Even so, I suppose that my job of thinking up the story was a little more fun than when I was drawing the pictures. Ah, but to speak frankly, the second half of the story was difficult because I somewhat overdid thinking it up. Though I did a good job continuing it like that… I think."
Not much valuable information. Although he does show acceptable of the guide, and loves the idea that his story is now going to be completely clarified.
Daizenshuu 3:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-3-toriyama-intro/
Akira Toriyama states that its involvement is in relation to the anime. Akira Toriyama accepted the Anime as part of the entire plot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/dayspring/AnimeMe4.jpg
Akira Toriyama had involvements with fillers:
Fans just like to disregard things under their own basis and tastes
That's why Dragon Ball Kai is considered canon as it's Akira Toriyama's cut and he chose some fillers to stay in it:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/
Which makes Akira FULL aware of the credibility of Daizenshuu 3 Information about the Anime. So No, till now they're canon.
Daizenshuu 3 Introduction, last of it:
"Either way, I am truly indebted to everyone on the staff and am very thankful.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira is stated to have involvement in the production of the Anime:
This is the same interview about Daizenshuu 3.
Although it still has contradictions, we cannot disregard this fact at all.
Daizenshuu 4:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-4-toriyama-intro/
"It seems that the fourth volume is a Dragon Ball “world guide”. I think that the staff all worked very hard, particularly on the buildings’ layouts, the maps, and whatnot. On top of just sloppily drawing things by the seat of my pants, there are many things that not even I had precisely determined. Weren’t they a bit fed up with how things didn’t come together consistently? I’m very sorry.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira Toriyama CONFIRMS that the Manga has its shares of inconsistencies, and apologised for the staff who had to deal with it, so to him Daizenshuu 4 is a full clarification of his works even information which establishes to inform us about the inconsistencies Akira has made.
Akira has involvement in Daizenshuu 4 (very little though. Still his information was directly placed in Daizenshuu 4):
His interview is referenced in Daizenshuu 4.
Daizenshuu 5:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-5-toriyama-intro/
"The Daizenshuu this time around covers the second half of the Dragon Ball anime. Come to think of it, apparently the TV series is going to continue for a little bit longer, as a brand-new story not present in the original. It seems well thought-out and promises to be interesting; or at least that’s what I gather from the rough scripts they’ve shown me, which give a broad outline of how it’ll be. From now on I can be just like everyone else, simply watching the TV broadcasts at home and wondering with bated breath what on Earth will happen next. I’m looking forward to it, and my thanks go out to all the staff.
–Akira Toriyama"
This doesn't have any valuable information at all except the fact that he still appreciates their work (isn't a valuable proof), but since it follows Daizenshuu 3, then evidences from Daizenshuu 3 are applicable to 5. Besides, we can't pick what we want to be canon or not. Till now Daizenshuu stays canon
Daizenshuu 6:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-6-toriyama-intro/
"The Daizenshuu this time is a special collection of the animated movies. Frankly, I’ve never once gone to the theater to see Dragon Ball (or Dr. Slump, either), because it’d definitely be embarrassing to watch an anime of my own original story together with everyone else, and it’s not very befitting of a Tokyoite, is it? (Well, I guess I’m not a Tokyoite). I end up watching them secretly at home on video. My son used to have practically no interest in Dragon Ball, but lately he’s come to acknowledge it a little bit, and has even gone to see it in theaters. My daughter, however, seems to hate it altogether, and won’t even watch it at all when it comes on TV. Well, whatever.
–Akira Toriyama"
Not any valuable information, but still it has involvement to the movies. There are barely any references when it comes to the movies so Daizenshuu 6 is freely usable to Movies and OVAs
Daizenshuu 7:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-7-toriyama-intro/
"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore."
Akira is implying that Daizenshuu 7 sums up almost all of DBZ, including most of the things which even Akira Toriyama forgot, and approves that this Guide is a success and a consideration. Despite being the author like he said, there are things he doesn't know anymore which THE STAFF has put in the guide. Something Akira agrees on
"It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira Toriyama accepts this Guide in general and thinks its information is reliable and that it would have helped him, the author.
Daizenshuu 7 has all the information from Akira Toriyama. The interview about it also confirms this partly:
Daizenshuu 7 has valuable informations directly from him. An example for this id what he directly states about lunch and Android 17:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/rumors/lunch_daizenshuu7.jpg?x64626
Akira Toriyama clarified this in Daizenshuu 7:
About Lunch:
"Lunch went off chasing after Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan would also go from place to place while training with Chiaotzu, so they’d never meet up. But surely they’ve managed to miraculously cross paths."
Originally in chapter 515 of The Dragon Ball Manga, he stated that he originally meant it to be lunch to give the energy to the Genki Dama rather than Android 17:
This is evidented by what Android 17's words:
Android 17 NEVER met Goku and never even heard his voice. So it's a huge contradiction which is clarified in Daizenshuu 7.
Lunch appeared in the Anime. Akira also contributed a short quasi-Christmas-themed comic where lunch appears. This has been established in Daizenshuu 7 as well:
"KAME-SEN’NIN: “Hum hum hum ♪”
LUNCH: “Damn, where did that jerk Tenshinhan go off to?”
OOLONG: “Snore, snore”
BULMA: “Hey, go!! Look out!!”
YAMCHA: “Can I look now?”
TENSHINHAN: “Not yet!”"
In regards to what Akira said here:
"To tell you the truth, I totally forgot about her at one point. And then I remembered her after a while and I had to think of a reason why she disappeared. So I made it seem as if she was running after Tenshinhan."
The time frame and interval of time he talks about is not quite specific at all. This created many rumours which Daizneshuu 7, with the contribution of Akira, clarified this all.
Daizenshuu's information are directly taken from Akira Toriyama's Original work. So everything in it is canon as Akira's Contribution is all over it.
You show no evidence, thus you're wrong. Simple as that. Daizenshuu is an example, and Daizenshuu > you.
Just how idiotic are you? Akira never did say it's wrong. SHOW me evidence NOW. HE NEVER DISREGARDED IT.
Goku's power level in base on Namek is 3,000,000 and his Ssj form is 150,000,000. You're telling me Goku never got stronger and no feat in the Manga shows base forms getting stronger? That's just your limited mind bud. That's just you who's a complete thick-headed kid who can't even realize simple material and denies anything that goes against his opinion. Please, shut up and learn
Yeah the Manga says I'm right and not you. Your claim is so wrong it makes everyone cry out of laughter.
I could link your argument to other Communities and they're gonna laugh at you. You might even become a laughingstock.
Using comprehension as an excuse, wow. YOU SAY BASE GOKU TOURNAMENT OF POWER ARC IS EQUAL TO NAMEK SAGA BASE? HAHAHAHA WHAT KIND OF SHIT IS THIS? NO KID HAS EVER CLAIMED SOME SHIT LIKE THIS
BASE GOKU DBS SOLOS SSJ3 VEGETTO BUU SAGA.
This debunks you:
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13104
Read this all and try to debunk it ^ if you can't, then you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG and you concede. Ignoring it won't help you.
THEN SHOW ME EVIDENCE. Show me RIGHT NOW why I'm wrong. YOU CAN'T, THATS WHY. Everything I say is wrong? SHOW ME NOW why I'm wrong.
Let's look at Android 18 vs the kids
The fight commences over here.
Android 18 doesn't know of them being the kids thus she could start put holding back
Although this could easily differ when we're talking about the one who dashed put to the other person:
Goten and Trunks both dashed to her and she took her stance.
Android 18 already noted his power:
She clearly respects the performance and calls it "powerful". Coming from Android 18 talking to her head with serious look, she would have judged their abnormality in their power. Besides, that was one of the kids who did that (trunks) casually in base form.
For now we got:
Android 18 >=< Base Kids (individually)
They're keeping up well with Android 18. Although there a huge problem
Goten CAN'T see well, thus leg movements are completely sick. It's more like Trunks is the only one giving it his best. Goten is not even properly fighting. Base Trunks >=< Android 18.
They both represent 1 of them. Goten is only using his legs while trunks is using his arms. Neither of them are you their entire bodies at well, this is gives them a clear nerf in even both of their powers.
Kids (individually) >=< Android 18.
One could say that's even less than an entire power of a base kid
Trunks says "it's too hard to move". Both Goten and Trunks aren't fighting at their peak and fail to use their powers at their will. Both of them aren't even giving off the usual powers they have.
Given that they barely have skills, which was noted in DBS, we can know for sure that they aren't putting out power at all. Thus android 18 gets a hit
Base Kids (Individually) >=< Android 18
Evidence of Goten not being able to even see. Android 18 being an Android can't even be regularly sensed, which poses the question of how much Goten was forced to be nerfed against her. Trunks is only using his arms. Yet they're keeping up
Android 18 could be holding back but for now we've got nothing to prove
Base Trunks or Goten > Android 18
Android 18 shoots a beam at them. Goten can't see, and trunks can't use his body or simultaneously react on him own, forcing him to tell Goten to Fly.
We can clearly see how they're not even using portions of their real power.
Base Kids individually > Android 18
They decide to go Ssj because although can't move properly, they believe a Ssj would end it quick despite their inability to use most if their bodies
Ssj kids individually >>>> Android 18
Android 18 is quite surprised of their power although they barely released any power to begin with.
They transform.
Trunks says they're at a disadvantage. Although the disadvantage was mainly related to the costume which is getting in their way. It's as if trunks is only fighting using his hands while sitting. Given the fact that he has no Ki skills, it would be ridiculous to fight using barely any of their power, yet they kept up.
Goten is kicking anywhere and barely. He's mostly flying the body around.
Trunks thinks of Throwing a ki blast but they're scared of that blast accidentally killing her.
Trunks is confident she won't die though, especially when he can control his Ki blasts
Trunks doesn't throw the blast at full power at all.
Android 18 barely reacts and then dodges it even though that's barely anywhere near their power.
Android 18 sweats the shit out although that was partly their power. That was one kid.
Android 18 then decides to finish this quickly:
This doesn't imply she's superior. She just wants to make them get disqualified by exposing them, which she did by throwing a destructo disk.
She knows her HUGE inferiority and clearly saw that she can't beat them, and knew that they were at a disadvantage due to being inside that costume.
Android 18 questioning their powers implies that she doesn't know how powerful they originally are.
Ssj Trunks or Goten (individually) >>>>>> Android 18 >= Base Kids
This is supported in Dragon Ball Kai by how they're showcased to fight Android 18
http://aminoapps.com/p/363xp8
This shows that Dragon Ball Kai proves that Base Kids are almost equal to Android 18.
[quotepAnd the worst part is SSJ Goku Namek saga above Freezer... I mean, the kids or A18 I can understand the confusion because it was a somewhat complex scenario and they were separated by dozens of chapters... but fucking Namek Goku?[/quote]
Android 18 vs Kids is not a confusion. Prove that it is, now. If you can't, then that's a concession
The problem is that You don't read. I'll debunk you again:
Daizenshuu 2 says that Goku has "overwhelming power" in comparison to Frieza and one that is superior to his:
Daizenshuu 2 also says that Goku's strength COMPLETELY overwhelms Frieza's power:
Daizenshuu 7 in the history part says that Frieza was overwhelmed by Goku's power. The Battles part says that EVEN AT FULL POWER he was weaker than Ssj Goku:
So your "Fucking" is nothing but your utter speculative ass being in denial.
WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME TO READ THE MANGA WHEN YOU YOURSELF GOT RAPED HERE? Read the Manga yourself, because all you do is being in denial
You still haven't showed me ANY evidence for your claims. Thank you for conceding yet again.
Pretty much proves that you can't debunk it at all. the fact that you're unable to debunk it shows that you concede but you're trying to be denial bevause you can't accept your horrid mistakes, much like accept your look at the mirror.
This is proof that you don't read and don't know anything about the Manga and other official material. You can't debunk me, because you're the worst debater I've ever seen in my entire life. My experience in debating outweighs yours by far which is why you can't even hold a candle to me. Thanks for conceding further.
Your "end of story" translates "end of my idiocy and denialism". Thank you for confirming that I debunked you.
You're obviously messing some brain cells here
If you look carefully at what the following scan says, here it is established that Goku wants Buu to be reincarnated BACK as a good guy and he will train hard enough to match him at that Time.
This signifies:
1) Goku knows he's currently inferior to the Hypothetical Reincarnated Kid Buu, thus mentions training so he would match him well.
2) Goku wants to fight him one on one. He admires the fact that he's a great opponent for him and he wants to solely surpass that power, implying that he's inferior to him at that time but he won't be so when he'll get reincarnated.
Given Goku's confidence in his ability to get stronger to his level in these years of mostly peace, he knows he needs time to reach his level which is quite understandable to an extent. It can also refer to his base form reaching such heights.
We've already seen that Goku as a Ssj3 while gathering his Ki could beat up Kid Buu (later on Goku indirectly proves to us readers that he underestimated him). Seeing how Goku would need ALL that time to reach that little power, which In case he already is at Kid Buu's range of power, it would kinda break what little or huge sense is there on its own; in other simpler words, it'd be vastly illogical.
Goku wants to get stronger always, aiming for the best out there. Just simply needing that much time would kinda be contradictory to Goku's fast gains of power AND what you'll be seeing later.
Our main establishment for now was that According To Goku's Implification:
Hypothetical Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu
10 years has passed in which Reincarnated Buu would have grown enough to fight with his already ridiculous power. Goku decides to enter the Tournament because He wants to mainly fight This reincarnated Villain. Goku even RECOMMENDS Vegeta to enter as well so he could have his shot against Reincarnated Buu. This is implied by Goku when Vegeta asked Him "Why" then Goku replied that someone powerful will be entering.
Goku still has his idea of Him that he'll be someone great and powerful enough to entertain him despite all the training he's done to the point that be didn't even have time to meet Bulma and the others for 5 years straight.
Goku even believes that he's gonna be someone worth fighting even while he's talking to Vegeta, and spouting it bluntly. An already strong reincarnation of Kid Buu holding the same power Goku wants would actually 100% prove that He's gonna be no less worse than what Goku has an idea of Him.
Chain:
Hypothetical Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu ?-? Goku
As expected, all the participants from the Z-fighters have passed the preliminaries and advanced to the main Tournament Grounds. They notify Mr. Satan about what they've done. As he panics, Goku tells him to not worry because they won't be stealing the title from them. Although Goku then says "someone besides us and buu might win", obviously leaving Satan no chance but to think Goku's bluffing:
Well yes you could come out of your seat and say that Goku was purposely scaring him but what would Goku gain from it? Goku is a guy who "hates" lying when there's no reason to. You could include DBS or Movie where he approves of that fact. Regardless, there is no reason to even say that when Goku knows his strength between the others.
Goku includes Buu and Vegeta into the argument. Whether it could have been too far-taken, it doesn't rule the fact that Goku acknowledged the possibility.
Goku would obviously, and logically, be referring to the Reincarnated Buu. There's no reason to not think so as there isn't anybody out there who can touch them to begin with.
No one from Goku's group seem to recognize who's the "great fighter" Goku's talking about. Goku then rushes to Buu to tell him to manipulate the numbers and lots picked to his favor so he could fight The Reincarnated Buu at the very start where he's at full power:
This is further evidence of Goku's confidence in The Reincarnated Buu's abilities and all. He wants to fight him, considering him his equal. Goku then tells Vegeta who is it in actuality. He explains some refreshing stuff about this:
Goku states that he's been waiting all this time just for this moment. This proves that According to Goku, a reincarnation of Kid Buu would make him hold that strength (hence his patience all these years while ridiculously training hard for this day), would be as powerful as back then which is furthered here when he said he'd want to fight him one on one.
We now established that:
Uub ?-? Current Goku >>> End Of Buu Saga Goku
Goten now has Buu as his opponent thus panics. Goku tells him that if he kept training it wouldn't have been trouble. This at the very least implies that Goku got far stronger than before and Buu wouldn't have been troublesome for him:
Goku already implied with Vegeta that For their case it's the opposite:
Characters usually agree to NOT transform into Super Saiyans because they might be recognised. The only thing People forgot was Buu. They would still remember however the events of the Cell Games despite it being a long Time, and besides, they'd drag a ton of attention anyways:
As Goku enters with Oob into the fighting stage, Piccolo states that this match will the "match of the day" meaning Piccolo simply concluded that Oob should have monstrous power to make it a "match of the day" with someone of Goku's level. Goku even tells him not to stress out because it would strict his latent abilities:
Piccolo is interested in the fight very much and in fact Goku even tells him that Uub shouldn't stress out or else he won't be able to put forth his true power. Basically this already supports the points above. I'll be putting it this way for now:
Oob = Kid Buu ¿>=<? Base Goku
Goku decides to wake up his potential by throwing insults and when he does and Oob gets mad, he really does Hurt Goku and shakes him off even. Still not that much of a change but a good way to show us how much he seems it at a serious matter. Even Gohan and Krillin where swallowing their shit again:
This proves That Goku got RIDICULOUSLY stronger hence their shock. Goku did train at an utmost rate to the point of this:
As The fight progresses, Goku realizes how untrained Oob is, thus decides to train him knowing his potential even though it "never" occurred with him which shows it being natural. The best part is by Goku saying "You're just like I thought". Goku thought of Him at Kid Buu's level. We also see Goku handling him easily at his part.
This goes to show how great Oob is, and how Goku IN BASE is ridiculously strong which is the fruit of his training just to fight Uub. Goku thinks that Uub needs years to reach Goku's level if strength. Be it meant in Base form or Ssj3 form, it still generally shows that there's a huge difference in power.
Base Goku >>> Oob = Kid Buu
Goku decides to train Oob to master his power so he could fight Goku in an all-out fight. Goku believes that Oob will become powerful enough to fight Goku (this signifies Goku's confidence in his power to stay above Oob [He never plans to be surpassed] but we can also say that Goku will train through these years which is way more likely). Piccolo implies that Goku is extremely happy about This, and more to it is of what Vegeta mentioned.
The translation ^ implies that Vegeta is weaker than Goku, and that Goku will also be training. (Vegeta also implied that he trained and we don't have any other confirmation of how much Goku is stronger thus We can only say that they're equal or Goku is a bit stronger)
Last chain:
Base Goku >= Base Vegeta >>>>> Oob = Kid Buu
Ok, now the anime doesn't really have much differences between the two coins. However, it does include some more evidences which in the end indicate that Base Goku EoZ is above Uub and that Uub is "definitely" Kid Buu's reincarnation.
As soon as Uub attacks Goku, Goku quickly concludes based on his power that he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu. So to him, Uub is as strong as Kid Buu since the comparison was made in accordance to power:
Piccolo then sees Goku fighting evenly with Uub, and based on his power, he concludes that Uub is the reincarnation of Kid Buu. He even says there's no other way around it implying how obvious it is:
In fact Goku is portrayed to have trouble with Uub who's supposedly the reincarnation of Kid Buu (he's still suppressed but it says alot). This places Base Goku EoZ above Kid Buu:
Goku even says that he's just like he expected which is Kid Buu:
Goku even says that if he trained Uub he'll become far stronger meaning Goku is aware that he's far above Uub. Be it base or Super Saiyan, the statement is quite general:
El Manga Legendario states that Uub could fight Base Goku BECAUSE he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu. So because he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu, he has the latent power enough to make him fight Base Goku:
Daizenshuu also places Uub at Kid Buu's level:
So this places Base Goku > Uub = Kid Buu
Base Goku >= Base Vegeta > Uub = Kid Buu. It is supported multiple times already in the series.
Your opinion is irrelevant infront of factual material.
You ignored and haven't debunked anything and yet you say I didn't prove anything? how much of a hypocrite can you be? Concession accepted
WHERE DOES IT SAY BASE FORMS DON'T GET STRONGER? STOP STRAWMANING
Limits are always broken. In the Tournament of Power for example Goku broke his limits many times and this is stated by both Goku and Vegeta. Limits are always broken. This here proves it:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39294&p=1348679#p1348679
And every time limits are mentioned, they get past them. Your entire argument is an assumption
I'm still waiting for Vegeta's statement which is supposed to prove that Base forms don't get stronger.
WHAT KIND OF SHIT REFUTE IS THIS? WHAT DOES VEGETA NOT REACHING HIS LIMITS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?. My argument is not bad, it is intellectual. Saiyans have NO POTENTIAL LIMITS AT ALL. Saiyans can get stronger as much as possible the more they train. They break their limits always. Even in DBS Vegeta and Goku state that Saiyans have limitless potential. Until you prove that wrong, your argument is irrelevant. I'll take that as a concession since you posted nothing but irrelevance.
That's what's shown to us in the Manga, yet ironically you're telling me to read the Manga. You're just one step into becoming a laughingstock to other Communities. Calm down and stop this foolishness
LMAO "read the manga" more like "read it again to debunk me hard please". This does not contribute to the issue
So this is irrelevant.
irrelevant. You're implying that Kaioken x20 Goku is Stronger than Ssj Goku? SERIOUSLY??!?!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!? Ssj Goku is above 50% Frieza.
You're smoking hard
No he wasn't stop acting like you're the author. SHOW ME EVIDENCE NOW. SHOW ME RIGHT THIS INSTANT. I KNOW YOU CAN'T BUT SINCE YOU CANT THEN YOU'RE UTTERLY WRONG. AKIRA DIDN'T SAY IT'S 10X BASE, he said he prefers it to be so but the Manga says otherwise and that's death of author. It feels like you're trying to adopt the debating style of someone who shitted on you.
It's you who don't understand how DBZ works. There's a DBZ community, I'm in it and now they're laughing at you. So when you say I don't understand that, look at yourself first. Lmao base Goku never got stronger, that's new to me since that's next level shit
What the Fucking fuck is this? The Daizenshuu says his power level in base is 3 million and his power level in Kaioken x20 is 60 million, which means his 10x Kaioken is 30 million. Wow, you can't even understand that. You need to quit debating right now and stop this misinformation right away.
Yeah I'm still waiting for evidence, and since you can't show me one then this is as irrelevant as you trying to debate.
Also guides > you. keep that in mind
Concession accepted.
This right here shows the definition of idiocy. Ssj3 Goku rapes Kaioshin. Kaioshin is weaker than Base form Saiyans, and Piccolo isn't stronger than Base form Buu Saga Saiyans and this is stated by everybody such as Dabura and Babidi
Since you failed to prove your point, you simply lost and concession accepted. Next time, know about what you're talking about then come at me. The misinformation is real.
freezamite said:
What do you mean in the Manga? You don't know the Manga more than everybody else. That's you being a total hypocrite. Horribly done Guides?
ALL GUIDES are more reliable than what you take them to be as they're all made by Akira Toriyama's staff:
Akira Toriyama even says that his staff aka Sheuisha knows more about DBZ than him and thus his words are to be taken as authority, meaning these guides are authority:
Don't disregard guides because you feel like it.
Huh? What does this has to do with it not being a set multiplier? You can't just deny guides because you feel like it. That's utterly abysmal. Guides >>>>> You. These are made by someone who has more authority than Akira Toriyama and Toriyama even says this himself by implying the difference in knowledge.
the only time they mastered the nature of a Super Saiyan is when Goku trained with Gohan in the ROSAT. However, NEVER DID THEY DO THAT BEFORE. NEVER! That's your utter speculation on the matter
evidence shows otherwise. It really does show otherwise. What you say is irrelevant if you can't prove it
You still didn't provide evidence for Vegeta's statement
and you also ignored everything in the Manga which I provided.
thanks for conceding.
Just how much do you wish to be wrong? Mecha Frieza is even stronger than Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku, yet Trunks fodderized him, and Yardrat Goku defeated trunks who released power enough to kill Mecha Frieza
Meaning he got stronger. In fact saying they're equal is utter headcanon from your part. Goku was stated to have gotten stronger and he even stopped his sword witj ome finger. Holding back or not Trunks says that this is the same sword using this same power context wise that he used to kill Frieza.
That's just you being in denial, simple. Ignoring official sources won't help you. Guides > You
I just showed you direct evidence but you obviously like to ignore these evidences because you can't handle being wrong. DON'T IGNORE. I'll take it you concede. Goku never reached his limit.
You still didn't provide any evidence for Vegeta's scan.
You still haven't shown why the multiplier is wrong
Offical Material > Your invalid opinion
If you won't show me, then That's a concession
The only time they did train their Super Saiyan form is when Goku was with Gohan. Base Forms are shown to have gotten stronger. But again, you are so blatant and disrespectful you ignore anything that debunks you. I've met so many people like you who ignore the things which debunk them. I'll take this Win, thanks for the concession as well. You're just afraid to say it
WHAT?!?!?!?! Goku was training his base form in the afterlife, so you're saying he isn't getting stronger?!?!? Despite Super Exciting Guide saying otherwise?!?!?!?!?! What do you mean poison? These poisons are better than you, and if they're poison them you're something worse
HOW CAN YOU SAY The guides are poison if they're made by people more reliable than Akira Toriyama himself? What kind of pure cancer is this? Even Akira in an interview approved that Super Saiyan is a set multiplier. Your point is INVALID if you can't prove it. Another indirect concession, thank you.
SHOW ME SCANS. I'M ASKING FOR EVIDENCE. SHOW ME WHY THE SSJ MULTIPLIER INCREASED RATHER THAN BASE. If you can't even prove that, then your entire point falls under the horseshit category.
PROVE IT. You say that you said that, but you didn't prove it. You haven't showed me ANY SINGLE evidence for it. SHOW ME, that's what I'm asking. If you can't do that, then your entire argument falls to pieces. WHAT you say is absolutely irrelevant if you can't prove it. You claim something is wrong but you have to show me why it's wrong. If you can't, then that's yet another concession
Nice try being picky. Futile though
Look who's talking, the same person who's acting hypocritically infront me and being indecent. Next time, be decent and show evidence behind your claims rather than acting hypocritically and fail to show evidence behind your claims.
Already debunked? SHOW ME NOW. NO GUIDE IS ALREADY DEBUNKED. NO GUIDE AT ALL. All of these guides are made by people who are more authoritative than Akira Toriyama and Akira himself confirms this. The fact that you fail to show evidence behind your claims show how much of a normie you are.
I'm still waiting for you to show me why they're bullshit. In your eyes they're bullshit because they debunk your hairy dirty ass and that's all. You're just a troll, you shouldn't even exist in the Dragon Ball community while claiming something as atrocious as this.
SHOW me evidence, now. Until you show me evidence of your claims, your entire stance is irrelevant and non-existent at all.
WHAT?!?!? Akira himself approved of these guides. These guides are canon and Akira approves of this
Akira Toriyama Confirms that his staff, are more knowledgeable than him in Dragon Ball Z:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/akira-toriyama-comments-super-dragon-ball-z/
Akira Toriyama checks the content that is written in Daizenshuu before hand:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-1-toriyama-intro/
"In commemoration of Dragon Ball’s happy ending, they’re putting out my complete works."
Akira Toriyama Approves that Daizenshuu includes his works.
"This first one is a special collection of “Illustrations”, or colored manga cuts. Looking at this, in a little over ten years there were many pictures that were drawn… no, that I drew. It is inexcusable how many pictures there are in here that cause even me to gag when I look at them now, but if you’d like, please look at them with a big heart."
Daizenshuu 1 includes all his illustrations. Those are his works, they are *his* work however completely shuffled or scattered.
Daizenshuu 2:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-2-toriyama-intro/
"It seems that the second of the complete works is a “story edition”."
It's a book that completely talks about the story of Akira Toriyama's in general.
"For me, having drawn the manga by the seat of my pants, to have it called a “story” is only embarrassing. Even so, I suppose that my job of thinking up the story was a little more fun than when I was drawing the pictures. Ah, but to speak frankly, the second half of the story was difficult because I somewhat overdid thinking it up. Though I did a good job continuing it like that… I think."
Not much valuable information. Although he does show acceptable of the guide, and loves the idea that his story is now going to be completely clarified.
Daizenshuu 3:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-3-toriyama-intro/
Akira Toriyama states that its involvement is in relation to the anime. Akira Toriyama accepted the Anime as part of the entire plot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/dayspring/AnimeMe4.jpg
Akira Toriyama had involvements with fillers:
Fans just like to disregard things under their own basis and tastes
That's why Dragon Ball Kai is considered canon as it's Akira Toriyama's cut and he chose some fillers to stay in it:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/
Which makes Akira FULL aware of the credibility of Daizenshuu 3 Information about the Anime. So No, till now they're canon.
Daizenshuu 3 Introduction, last of it:
"Either way, I am truly indebted to everyone on the staff and am very thankful.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira is stated to have involvement in the production of the Anime:
This is the same interview about Daizenshuu 3.
Although it still has contradictions, we cannot disregard this fact at all.
Daizenshuu 4:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-4-toriyama-intro/
"It seems that the fourth volume is a Dragon Ball “world guide”. I think that the staff all worked very hard, particularly on the buildings’ layouts, the maps, and whatnot. On top of just sloppily drawing things by the seat of my pants, there are many things that not even I had precisely determined. Weren’t they a bit fed up with how things didn’t come together consistently? I’m very sorry.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira Toriyama CONFIRMS that the Manga has its shares of inconsistencies, and apologised for the staff who had to deal with it, so to him Daizenshuu 4 is a full clarification of his works even information which establishes to inform us about the inconsistencies Akira has made.
Akira has involvement in Daizenshuu 4 (very little though. Still his information was directly placed in Daizenshuu 4):
His interview is referenced in Daizenshuu 4.
Daizenshuu 5:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-5-toriyama-intro/
"The Daizenshuu this time around covers the second half of the Dragon Ball anime. Come to think of it, apparently the TV series is going to continue for a little bit longer, as a brand-new story not present in the original. It seems well thought-out and promises to be interesting; or at least that’s what I gather from the rough scripts they’ve shown me, which give a broad outline of how it’ll be. From now on I can be just like everyone else, simply watching the TV broadcasts at home and wondering with bated breath what on Earth will happen next. I’m looking forward to it, and my thanks go out to all the staff.
–Akira Toriyama"
This doesn't have any valuable information at all except the fact that he still appreciates their work (isn't a valuable proof), but since it follows Daizenshuu 3, then evidences from Daizenshuu 3 are applicable to 5. Besides, we can't pick what we want to be canon or not. Till now Daizenshuu stays canon
Daizenshuu 6:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-6-toriyama-intro/
"The Daizenshuu this time is a special collection of the animated movies. Frankly, I’ve never once gone to the theater to see Dragon Ball (or Dr. Slump, either), because it’d definitely be embarrassing to watch an anime of my own original story together with everyone else, and it’s not very befitting of a Tokyoite, is it? (Well, I guess I’m not a Tokyoite). I end up watching them secretly at home on video. My son used to have practically no interest in Dragon Ball, but lately he’s come to acknowledge it a little bit, and has even gone to see it in theaters. My daughter, however, seems to hate it altogether, and won’t even watch it at all when it comes on TV. Well, whatever.
–Akira Toriyama"
Not any valuable information, but still it has involvement to the movies. There are barely any references when it comes to the movies so Daizenshuu 6 is freely usable to Movies and OVAs
Daizenshuu 7:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-7-toriyama-intro/
"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I’m ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author, there’s lots of stuff even I don’t know anymore."
Akira is implying that Daizenshuu 7 sums up almost all of DBZ, including most of the things which even Akira Toriyama forgot, and approves that this Guide is a success and a consideration. Despite being the author like he said, there are things he doesn't know anymore which THE STAFF has put in the guide. Something Akira agrees on
"It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fans.
–Akira Toriyama"
Akira Toriyama accepts this Guide in general and thinks its information is reliable and that it would have helped him, the author.
Daizenshuu 7 has all the information from Akira Toriyama. The interview about it also confirms this partly:
Daizenshuu 7 has valuable informations directly from him. An example for this id what he directly states about lunch and Android 17:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/rumors/lunch_daizenshuu7.jpg?x64626
Akira Toriyama clarified this in Daizenshuu 7:
About Lunch:
"Lunch went off chasing after Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan would also go from place to place while training with Chiaotzu, so they’d never meet up. But surely they’ve managed to miraculously cross paths."
Originally in chapter 515 of The Dragon Ball Manga, he stated that he originally meant it to be lunch to give the energy to the Genki Dama rather than Android 17:
This is evidented by what Android 17's words:
Android 17 NEVER met Goku and never even heard his voice. So it's a huge contradiction which is clarified in Daizenshuu 7.
Lunch appeared in the Anime. Akira also contributed a short quasi-Christmas-themed comic where lunch appears. This has been established in Daizenshuu 7 as well:
"KAME-SEN’NIN: “Hum hum hum ♪”
LUNCH: “Damn, where did that jerk Tenshinhan go off to?”
OOLONG: “Snore, snore”
BULMA: “Hey, go!! Look out!!”
YAMCHA: “Can I look now?”
TENSHINHAN: “Not yet!”"
In regards to what Akira said here:
"To tell you the truth, I totally forgot about her at one point. And then I remembered her after a while and I had to think of a reason why she disappeared. So I made it seem as if she was running after Tenshinhan."
The time frame and interval of time he talks about is not quite specific at all. This created many rumours which Daizneshuu 7, with the contribution of Akira, clarified this all.
Daizenshuu's information are directly taken from Akira Toriyama's Original work. So everything in it is canon as Akira's Contribution is all over it.
You show no evidence, thus you're wrong. Simple as that. Daizenshuu is an example, and Daizenshuu > you.
Just how idiotic are you? Akira never did say it's wrong. SHOW me evidence NOW. HE NEVER DISREGARDED IT.
Goku's power level in base on Namek is 3,000,000 and his Ssj form is 150,000,000. You're telling me Goku never got stronger and no feat in the Manga shows base forms getting stronger? That's just your limited mind bud. That's just you who's a complete thick-headed kid who can't even realize simple material and denies anything that goes against his opinion. Please, shut up and learn
Yeah the Manga says I'm right and not you. Your claim is so wrong it makes everyone cry out of laughter.
I could link your argument to other Communities and they're gonna laugh at you. You might even become a laughingstock.
Using comprehension as an excuse, wow. YOU SAY BASE GOKU TOURNAMENT OF POWER ARC IS EQUAL TO NAMEK SAGA BASE? HAHAHAHA WHAT KIND OF SHIT IS THIS? NO KID HAS EVER CLAIMED SOME SHIT LIKE THIS
BASE GOKU DBS SOLOS SSJ3 VEGETTO BUU SAGA.
This debunks you:
http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13104
Read this all and try to debunk it ^ if you can't, then you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG and you concede. Ignoring it won't help you.
THEN SHOW ME EVIDENCE. Show me RIGHT NOW why I'm wrong. YOU CAN'T, THATS WHY. Everything I say is wrong? SHOW ME NOW why I'm wrong.
Let's look at Android 18 vs the kids
The fight commences over here.
Android 18 doesn't know of them being the kids thus she could start put holding back
Although this could easily differ when we're talking about the one who dashed put to the other person:
Goten and Trunks both dashed to her and she took her stance.
Android 18 already noted his power:
She clearly respects the performance and calls it "powerful". Coming from Android 18 talking to her head with serious look, she would have judged their abnormality in their power. Besides, that was one of the kids who did that (trunks) casually in base form.
For now we got:
Android 18 >=< Base Kids (individually)
They're keeping up well with Android 18. Although there a huge problem
Goten CAN'T see well, thus leg movements are completely sick. It's more like Trunks is the only one giving it his best. Goten is not even properly fighting. Base Trunks >=< Android 18.
They both represent 1 of them. Goten is only using his legs while trunks is using his arms. Neither of them are you their entire bodies at well, this is gives them a clear nerf in even both of their powers.
Kids (individually) >=< Android 18.
One could say that's even less than an entire power of a base kid
Trunks says "it's too hard to move". Both Goten and Trunks aren't fighting at their peak and fail to use their powers at their will. Both of them aren't even giving off the usual powers they have.
Given that they barely have skills, which was noted in DBS, we can know for sure that they aren't putting out power at all. Thus android 18 gets a hit
Base Kids (Individually) >=< Android 18
Evidence of Goten not being able to even see. Android 18 being an Android can't even be regularly sensed, which poses the question of how much Goten was forced to be nerfed against her. Trunks is only using his arms. Yet they're keeping up
Android 18 could be holding back but for now we've got nothing to prove
Base Trunks or Goten > Android 18
Android 18 shoots a beam at them. Goten can't see, and trunks can't use his body or simultaneously react on him own, forcing him to tell Goten to Fly.
We can clearly see how they're not even using portions of their real power.
Base Kids individually > Android 18
They decide to go Ssj because although can't move properly, they believe a Ssj would end it quick despite their inability to use most if their bodies
Ssj kids individually >>>> Android 18
Android 18 is quite surprised of their power although they barely released any power to begin with.
They transform.
Trunks says they're at a disadvantage. Although the disadvantage was mainly related to the costume which is getting in their way. It's as if trunks is only fighting using his hands while sitting. Given the fact that he has no Ki skills, it would be ridiculous to fight using barely any of their power, yet they kept up.
Goten is kicking anywhere and barely. He's mostly flying the body around.
Trunks thinks of Throwing a ki blast but they're scared of that blast accidentally killing her.
Trunks is confident she won't die though, especially when he can control his Ki blasts
Trunks doesn't throw the blast at full power at all.
Android 18 barely reacts and then dodges it even though that's barely anywhere near their power.
Android 18 sweats the shit out although that was partly their power. That was one kid.
Android 18 then decides to finish this quickly:
This doesn't imply she's superior. She just wants to make them get disqualified by exposing them, which she did by throwing a destructo disk.
She knows her HUGE inferiority and clearly saw that she can't beat them, and knew that they were at a disadvantage due to being inside that costume.
Android 18 questioning their powers implies that she doesn't know how powerful they originally are.
Ssj Trunks or Goten (individually) >>>>>> Android 18 >= Base Kids
This is supported in Dragon Ball Kai by how they're showcased to fight Android 18
http://aminoapps.com/p/363xp8
This shows that Dragon Ball Kai proves that Base Kids are almost equal to Android 18.
[quotepAnd the worst part is SSJ Goku Namek saga above Freezer... I mean, the kids or A18 I can understand the confusion because it was a somewhat complex scenario and they were separated by dozens of chapters... but fucking Namek Goku?[/quote]
Android 18 vs Kids is not a confusion. Prove that it is, now. If you can't, then that's a concession
The problem is that You don't read. I'll debunk you again:
Daizenshuu 2 says that Goku has "overwhelming power" in comparison to Frieza and one that is superior to his:
Daizenshuu 2 also says that Goku's strength COMPLETELY overwhelms Frieza's power:
Daizenshuu 7 in the history part says that Frieza was overwhelmed by Goku's power. The Battles part says that EVEN AT FULL POWER he was weaker than Ssj Goku:
So your "Fucking" is nothing but your utter speculative ass being in denial.
WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME TO READ THE MANGA WHEN YOU YOURSELF GOT RAPED HERE? Read the Manga yourself, because all you do is being in denial
You still haven't showed me ANY evidence for your claims. Thank you for conceding yet again.
Pretty much proves that you can't debunk it at all. the fact that you're unable to debunk it shows that you concede but you're trying to be denial bevause you can't accept your horrid mistakes, much like accept your look at the mirror.
This is proof that you don't read and don't know anything about the Manga and other official material. You can't debunk me, because you're the worst debater I've ever seen in my entire life. My experience in debating outweighs yours by far which is why you can't even hold a candle to me. Thanks for conceding further.
Your "end of story" translates "end of my idiocy and denialism". Thank you for confirming that I debunked you.
You're obviously messing some brain cells here
If you look carefully at what the following scan says, here it is established that Goku wants Buu to be reincarnated BACK as a good guy and he will train hard enough to match him at that Time.
This signifies:
1) Goku knows he's currently inferior to the Hypothetical Reincarnated Kid Buu, thus mentions training so he would match him well.
2) Goku wants to fight him one on one. He admires the fact that he's a great opponent for him and he wants to solely surpass that power, implying that he's inferior to him at that time but he won't be so when he'll get reincarnated.
Given Goku's confidence in his ability to get stronger to his level in these years of mostly peace, he knows he needs time to reach his level which is quite understandable to an extent. It can also refer to his base form reaching such heights.
We've already seen that Goku as a Ssj3 while gathering his Ki could beat up Kid Buu (later on Goku indirectly proves to us readers that he underestimated him). Seeing how Goku would need ALL that time to reach that little power, which In case he already is at Kid Buu's range of power, it would kinda break what little or huge sense is there on its own; in other simpler words, it'd be vastly illogical.
Goku wants to get stronger always, aiming for the best out there. Just simply needing that much time would kinda be contradictory to Goku's fast gains of power AND what you'll be seeing later.
Our main establishment for now was that According To Goku's Implification:
Hypothetical Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu
10 years has passed in which Reincarnated Buu would have grown enough to fight with his already ridiculous power. Goku decides to enter the Tournament because He wants to mainly fight This reincarnated Villain. Goku even RECOMMENDS Vegeta to enter as well so he could have his shot against Reincarnated Buu. This is implied by Goku when Vegeta asked Him "Why" then Goku replied that someone powerful will be entering.
Goku still has his idea of Him that he'll be someone great and powerful enough to entertain him despite all the training he's done to the point that be didn't even have time to meet Bulma and the others for 5 years straight.
Goku even believes that he's gonna be someone worth fighting even while he's talking to Vegeta, and spouting it bluntly. An already strong reincarnation of Kid Buu holding the same power Goku wants would actually 100% prove that He's gonna be no less worse than what Goku has an idea of Him.
Chain:
Hypothetical Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu ?-? Goku
As expected, all the participants from the Z-fighters have passed the preliminaries and advanced to the main Tournament Grounds. They notify Mr. Satan about what they've done. As he panics, Goku tells him to not worry because they won't be stealing the title from them. Although Goku then says "someone besides us and buu might win", obviously leaving Satan no chance but to think Goku's bluffing:
Well yes you could come out of your seat and say that Goku was purposely scaring him but what would Goku gain from it? Goku is a guy who "hates" lying when there's no reason to. You could include DBS or Movie where he approves of that fact. Regardless, there is no reason to even say that when Goku knows his strength between the others.
Goku includes Buu and Vegeta into the argument. Whether it could have been too far-taken, it doesn't rule the fact that Goku acknowledged the possibility.
Goku would obviously, and logically, be referring to the Reincarnated Buu. There's no reason to not think so as there isn't anybody out there who can touch them to begin with.
No one from Goku's group seem to recognize who's the "great fighter" Goku's talking about. Goku then rushes to Buu to tell him to manipulate the numbers and lots picked to his favor so he could fight The Reincarnated Buu at the very start where he's at full power:
This is further evidence of Goku's confidence in The Reincarnated Buu's abilities and all. He wants to fight him, considering him his equal. Goku then tells Vegeta who is it in actuality. He explains some refreshing stuff about this:
Goku states that he's been waiting all this time just for this moment. This proves that According to Goku, a reincarnation of Kid Buu would make him hold that strength (hence his patience all these years while ridiculously training hard for this day), would be as powerful as back then which is furthered here when he said he'd want to fight him one on one.
We now established that:
Uub ?-? Current Goku >>> End Of Buu Saga Goku
Goten now has Buu as his opponent thus panics. Goku tells him that if he kept training it wouldn't have been trouble. This at the very least implies that Goku got far stronger than before and Buu wouldn't have been troublesome for him:
Goku already implied with Vegeta that For their case it's the opposite:
Characters usually agree to NOT transform into Super Saiyans because they might be recognised. The only thing People forgot was Buu. They would still remember however the events of the Cell Games despite it being a long Time, and besides, they'd drag a ton of attention anyways:
As Goku enters with Oob into the fighting stage, Piccolo states that this match will the "match of the day" meaning Piccolo simply concluded that Oob should have monstrous power to make it a "match of the day" with someone of Goku's level. Goku even tells him not to stress out because it would strict his latent abilities:
Piccolo is interested in the fight very much and in fact Goku even tells him that Uub shouldn't stress out or else he won't be able to put forth his true power. Basically this already supports the points above. I'll be putting it this way for now:
Oob = Kid Buu ¿>=<? Base Goku
Goku decides to wake up his potential by throwing insults and when he does and Oob gets mad, he really does Hurt Goku and shakes him off even. Still not that much of a change but a good way to show us how much he seems it at a serious matter. Even Gohan and Krillin where swallowing their shit again:
This proves That Goku got RIDICULOUSLY stronger hence their shock. Goku did train at an utmost rate to the point of this:
As The fight progresses, Goku realizes how untrained Oob is, thus decides to train him knowing his potential even though it "never" occurred with him which shows it being natural. The best part is by Goku saying "You're just like I thought". Goku thought of Him at Kid Buu's level. We also see Goku handling him easily at his part.
This goes to show how great Oob is, and how Goku IN BASE is ridiculously strong which is the fruit of his training just to fight Uub. Goku thinks that Uub needs years to reach Goku's level if strength. Be it meant in Base form or Ssj3 form, it still generally shows that there's a huge difference in power.
Base Goku >>> Oob = Kid Buu
Goku decides to train Oob to master his power so he could fight Goku in an all-out fight. Goku believes that Oob will become powerful enough to fight Goku (this signifies Goku's confidence in his power to stay above Oob [He never plans to be surpassed] but we can also say that Goku will train through these years which is way more likely). Piccolo implies that Goku is extremely happy about This, and more to it is of what Vegeta mentioned.
The translation ^ implies that Vegeta is weaker than Goku, and that Goku will also be training. (Vegeta also implied that he trained and we don't have any other confirmation of how much Goku is stronger thus We can only say that they're equal or Goku is a bit stronger)
Last chain:
Base Goku >= Base Vegeta >>>>> Oob = Kid Buu
Ok, now the anime doesn't really have much differences between the two coins. However, it does include some more evidences which in the end indicate that Base Goku EoZ is above Uub and that Uub is "definitely" Kid Buu's reincarnation.
As soon as Uub attacks Goku, Goku quickly concludes based on his power that he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu. So to him, Uub is as strong as Kid Buu since the comparison was made in accordance to power:
Piccolo then sees Goku fighting evenly with Uub, and based on his power, he concludes that Uub is the reincarnation of Kid Buu. He even says there's no other way around it implying how obvious it is:
In fact Goku is portrayed to have trouble with Uub who's supposedly the reincarnation of Kid Buu (he's still suppressed but it says alot). This places Base Goku EoZ above Kid Buu:
Goku even says that he's just like he expected which is Kid Buu:
Goku even says that if he trained Uub he'll become far stronger meaning Goku is aware that he's far above Uub. Be it base or Super Saiyan, the statement is quite general:
El Manga Legendario states that Uub could fight Base Goku BECAUSE he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu. So because he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu, he has the latent power enough to make him fight Base Goku:
Daizenshuu also places Uub at Kid Buu's level:
So this places Base Goku > Uub = Kid Buu
Base Goku >= Base Vegeta > Uub = Kid Buu. It is supported multiple times already in the series.
Your opinion is irrelevant infront of factual material.
You ignored and haven't debunked anything and yet you say I didn't prove anything? how much of a hypocrite can you be? Concession accepted
WHERE DOES IT SAY BASE FORMS DON'T GET STRONGER? STOP STRAWMANING
Limits are always broken. In the Tournament of Power for example Goku broke his limits many times and this is stated by both Goku and Vegeta. Limits are always broken. This here proves it:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39294&p=1348679#p1348679
And every time limits are mentioned, they get past them. Your entire argument is an assumption
I'm still waiting for Vegeta's statement which is supposed to prove that Base forms don't get stronger.
WHAT KIND OF SHIT REFUTE IS THIS? WHAT DOES VEGETA NOT REACHING HIS LIMITS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?. My argument is not bad, it is intellectual. Saiyans have NO POTENTIAL LIMITS AT ALL. Saiyans can get stronger as much as possible the more they train. They break their limits always. Even in DBS Vegeta and Goku state that Saiyans have limitless potential. Until you prove that wrong, your argument is irrelevant. I'll take that as a concession since you posted nothing but irrelevance.
That's what's shown to us in the Manga, yet ironically you're telling me to read the Manga. You're just one step into becoming a laughingstock to other Communities. Calm down and stop this foolishness
LMAO "read the manga" more like "read it again to debunk me hard please". This does not contribute to the issue
So this is irrelevant.
irrelevant. You're implying that Kaioken x20 Goku is Stronger than Ssj Goku? SERIOUSLY??!?!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!? Ssj Goku is above 50% Frieza.
You're smoking hard
No he wasn't stop acting like you're the author. SHOW ME EVIDENCE NOW. SHOW ME RIGHT THIS INSTANT. I KNOW YOU CAN'T BUT SINCE YOU CANT THEN YOU'RE UTTERLY WRONG. AKIRA DIDN'T SAY IT'S 10X BASE, he said he prefers it to be so but the Manga says otherwise and that's death of author. It feels like you're trying to adopt the debating style of someone who shitted on you.
It's you who don't understand how DBZ works. There's a DBZ community, I'm in it and now they're laughing at you. So when you say I don't understand that, look at yourself first. Lmao base Goku never got stronger, that's new to me since that's next level shit
What the Fucking fuck is this? The Daizenshuu says his power level in base is 3 million and his power level in Kaioken x20 is 60 million, which means his 10x Kaioken is 30 million. Wow, you can't even understand that. You need to quit debating right now and stop this misinformation right away.
Yeah I'm still waiting for evidence, and since you can't show me one then this is as irrelevant as you trying to debate.
Also guides > you. keep that in mind
Concession accepted.
This right here shows the definition of idiocy. Ssj3 Goku rapes Kaioshin. Kaioshin is weaker than Base form Saiyans, and Piccolo isn't stronger than Base form Buu Saga Saiyans and this is stated by everybody such as Dabura and Babidi
Since you failed to prove your point, you simply lost and concession accepted. Next time, know about what you're talking about then come at me. The misinformation is real.
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ahill1 said:
Welp, I'm always ready regardless
