Are Regular/SSJs/SSJ2s all around the same level?

[Fantastische Hure]

What I mean is that are they all around the same tier? Vegeta was talking about surpassing the SSJ wall or something when he talked about going to the RoSaT to train & surpass the androids & Cell. Is it possible that all SSJs are all around the same power, higher or lower, depending on their person/power-level/limits.

SSJs cap then can be upped a-bit, after unlocking a new form or something. Or maybe they can channel power from their new form into their previous form. That could explain Vegeta vs 2nd Form Cell.

I read some of the manga and then looked up on it on the internet and it feels like a valid explanation. This would also explain why Gohan in the future after years of training could not surpass the cyborgs. He didn't surpass the wall. To surpass them, you need to surpass SSJ first.

 

[Animelover5487]

He could have meant it as in like relatively speaking. There wasn't any other training method aside from the ROSAT that would allow them to increase their power level enough fast enough. The Ascended forms required training to learn and both Vegeta and Goku both picked up on that the more powerful grade 3 form was too much of a drawback due to how slow it was, making mastering SSJ ideal. Personally, I don't understand why Grade 2 was atleast never used again, it seemed to be a solid power up and it didn't have the drawback Grade 3 did but like Kaioken Toriyama just kind of forgot about it.

 

[SSJ2]

But why would Gohan far outstrip everyone at the Cell Games prior to gaining a new form?

 

[Animelover5487]

But why would Gohan far outstrip everyone at the Cell Games prior to gaining a new form?

Maybe because he mastered SSJ. I mean one can make the argument that mastering SSJ grants a power boost like how Goku got stronger in the manga FT arc by mastering SSJB but I am not really for that argument.

 

[Warmmedown]

I genuinely don't understand the topic. How does it explain Vegeta vs 2ndF Cell? You mean Grade 3 increased his Grade 2 power? Rosat training+Grade 2 is enough on its own.

Is the wall the one blocking SSJ2? I always thought it was that you need a certain amount of Base power to get SSJ, and maybe a certain amount of SSJ1 power to unlock SSJ2 when angered? And now I'm thinking there's a pure heart criteria, which explains why they need to master SSJ1 to achieve SSJ2. They needed to have a calmness in SSJ1, similar to how Goku had a calmness in Base, then add anger to that. Whereas what SHC is saying is the opposite: the SSJ2 transformation drags SSJ1 up?

It could be true that SSJ2 upgrades SSJ1. It's hard to say, because the only SSJ1 to SSJ2 jump we have a good reading of is Gohan, who didn't just get a SSJ2 boost, but also a no-longer-holding-back boost. We did see Gohan use SSJ2 again vs Kibito. Did he go SSJ1 first then? The reaction of Kibito or Kaioshin to Gohan switching from SSJ1 to SSJ2 could show if it is a big power jump - or the gap between forms is not so big, indicating SSJ1 was brought up by SSJ2's unlock.
But it could be true, because the training in the rosat was peculiar, for the saiyans. It was much more mental and spiritual than their usual training. There was relatively little physical training. Which goes against the idea of increasing SSJ1's power to unlock stronger forms and supports the idea of non-physical training bringing them closer to surpassing the SSJ2 wall of ki quality or saiyan spirit, which improves SSJ1's power and makes SSJ2 possible (with anger). Maybe Goku could have unlocked SSJ2 with anger, but he didn't get angry.

I still don't understand the topic though. Sounds convoluted. Or I made it convoluted.

 

[SSJ2]

What about Vegeta/Trunks in the Cell Games? They didn't master SSJ or learn any new forms, yet Goku knew that Vegeta had plenty of room for improvement after his first RoSaT trip.

It seems like limits are a temporary thing more than anything.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

But why would Gohan far outstrip everyone at the Cell Games prior to gaining a new form?

It's true that Gohan is above Goku & them by a lot at the Cell-Games, but it's possible that mastering SSJ allows them to surpass conventional tiers which might also be one of the reasons why mastering the form is considered the right way, so unmastered SSJs are all in the same tier in that case. In modern DragonBall for example Akira Toriyama said from now-on they'll only use regular, SSJ & the god forms IIRC (obviously that didn't happen in the tv-series or manga, but still). Also Gohan had always been special case compared to others when it comes to fighting, so maybe there's that too. Remember I think I also said that personal limits could also have something to do with that, so maybe Gohan's potential were just above everyone else's by a lot.

I genuinely don't understand the topic. How does it explain Vegeta vs 2ndF Cell? You mean Grade 3 increased his Grade 2 power? Rosat training+Grade 2 is enough on its own.

Is the wall the one blocking SSJ2? I always thought it was that you need a certain amount of Base power to get SSJ, and maybe a certain amount of SSJ1 power to unlock SSJ2 when angered? And now I'm thinking there's a pure heart criteria, which explains why they need to master SSJ1 to achieve SSJ2. They needed to have a calmness in SSJ1, similar to how Goku had a calmness in Base, then add anger to that. Whereas what SHC is saying is the opposite: the SSJ2 transformation drags SSJ1 up?

It could be true that SSJ2 upgrades SSJ1. It's hard to say, because the only SSJ1 to SSJ2 jump we have a good reading of is Gohan, who didn't just get a SSJ2 boost, but also a no-longer-holding-back boost. We did see Gohan use SSJ2 again vs Kibito. Did he go SSJ1 first then? The reaction of Kibito or Kaioshin to Gohan switching from SSJ1 to SSJ2 could show if it is a big power jump - or the gap between forms is not so big, indicating SSJ1 was brought up by SSJ2's unlock.
But it could be true, because the training in the rosat was peculiar, for the saiyans. It was much more mental and spiritual than their usual training. There was relatively little physical training. Which goes against the idea of increasing SSJ1's power to unlock stronger forms and supports the idea of non-physical training bringing them closer to surpassing the SSJ2 wall of ki quality or saiyan spirit, which improves SSJ1's power and makes SSJ2 possible (with anger). Maybe Goku could have unlocked SSJ2 with anger, but he didn't get angry.

I still don't understand the topic though. Sounds convoluted. Or I made it convoluted.

What I was referring to was #16 saying that Vegeta even when not powered-up to SSJ Grade-II being above #16 & the other cyborgs (when Vegeta first arrives on the scene, vs 2nd Form Cell).

I'm saying that all SSJs or SSJ2s or whatever forms are all in the same tier and none is much greater than the other, relatively looking at it. In the Cell saga they kept referring to a wall that had to be surpassed to defeat the cyborgs, so I thought maybe SSJs in general are all about the same power-level wise. It was after surpassing the wall that they gained the power to defeat the cyborgs. After unlocking a new form there are 2 options I mentioned, either they up the cap for their previous forms (so unlocking SSJ2 increased the cap for SSJ and maybe even their regular states) or they can channel a bit of the power of their next form into their previous form, which might be a bit convoluted.

 

[SSJ2]

The best case I can think of is SSJ Goku on Namek vs Android arc SSJ Goku. Wouldn't you say that is a completely different tier of power?

 

[Yoshi]

The best case I can think of is SSJ Goku on Namek vs Android arc SSJ Goku. Wouldn't you say that is a completely different tier of power?

Even Trunks Arc Goku is a lot stronger than Freeza Arc Goku (it’s debatable whether or not the Trunks Arc is in the Freeza Arc, Android Arc, or an Arc all on its own).

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The best case I can think of is SSJ Goku on Namek vs Android arc SSJ Goku. Wouldn't you say that is a completely different tier of power?

That is true. Then would you say it's fairer to say SSJ (unmasterd) has a wall that cannot be surpassed (cyborg/Cell level)?

 

[SSJ2]

That is true. Then would you say it's fairer to say SSJ (unmasterd) has a wall that cannot be surpassed (cyborg/Cell level)?

It could be. I always find limits to be strange in DB though. Gohan for example already had his potential unlocked on Namek and clearly became far stronger after it, which leads me to believe that limits are temporary. That first wall for unmastered Super Saiyans might be a thing, but I'd bet with enough time they would be able to surpass it without needing a new transformation/mastery.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@SSJ2

There's a general range of power. Let's say the general limit is somewhere from 375 m to 1.5 billion or so. That's where they can make decent gains, but anything beyond that they are pretty much stuck.

 

[ahill1]

FH has a point in that SSJ is treated under a realm of power that seems independent of the user. Like, Piccolo said, "Trunks was a SSJ and he got KO'd like that by the androids..." Trunks also said for them not to worry about him investigating the Cell time machine mystery because he had -----SSJ--...

Still, though, even if what we think isn't stated, it's more like implied — for example, Piccolo > SSJ sick Goku > SSJ post-Yardrat Goku > SSJ Namek Goku can be said to be circumstantial evidence — a valid line of thinking— but that is not so intuitive without needing to dissect things more deeply. But even so, some things are still more universal. Like, Goku needed to have gained some power in the 3 years; otherwise, he wouldn't say, "Now we have something to work towards," or "I'll be training hard to get stronger [talking to Future Trunks]..." SSJ Future Gohan was said to still not have caught up to SSJ Future Goku's power, who was < SSJ Androids Saga Goku, since Future Goku died of a virus shortly after without knowing about the androids. Vegeta slightly surpassed Androids Saga SSJ Goku... So, anyways, SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Androids Goku > SSJ post-Yardrat Goku > SSJ Future Trunks/Future Gohan is a established chain...

... So there's still a considerable gap between the strongest SSJ and the weakest SSJ...

It's more like a realm, IMO. Like P said, not a tremendous variance between the weakest and strongest SSJ, but a big one nonetheless—just not one that would make them ridiculously different, like to a point of Super Perfect Cell and Semi Perfect Cell... Let's say there is a 1:2 ratio between the weakest one... If SSJ provides a 10x / 50x boost, this plateau that could only be broken through other methods of training (the RoSaT), it still would make sense to treat the SSJs with a bigger focus on the state, IMO. There's a big variance, but still, under a realm that could be gathered as "SSJs" in a more general way... Even more so as the bulk of the power came from that, even with a 1.5x/2x power gain. Still, SSJ was the main deal. Like, Gotenks may have gotten a big boost after RoSaT, but it is still fusion being referred to, since the power boost isn't enough to outshine the more tremendous benefit given, which is fusion.