Gotenks' confidence against Majin Buu must place him above SSJ Goten and Trunks, that's credible at some point, as well as Trunks bringing the possibility of Base Gotenks Post ~ Fat Buu.
If we take this at face value:
SSJ Kids < Base Gotenks Pre < Base Gotenks Post ~ Fat Buu
Also, SSJ Gotenks states that it won't be like last time against Fat Buu, at least, that implies that the gap has gotten too smaller (and was pretty big before) considering cases such as Kamiccolo vs 17 or Super Perfect Cell with SSJ2 Kid Gohan.
But, the problem of this is that fusions has always been portrayed to be overconfident and Super is not the exception of this, the prime example being Kibitoshin thinking he could help Goku and Gohan to fight Gotenks Buu. I personally don't know how to make this implications works.
Well put it this way, Gotenks thinks he can take out Majin Buu, there’s no way he could think that if he wasn’t able to easily handle someone like Majin Vegeta.
base Gotenks Post already surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku, no reason his Pre Rosat power can’t surpass Super Saiyan 2 Goku.
Another problem is that, that would make Base Gotenks above SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, SSJ Goten and Trunks put together, even though, according to guidebooks is pretty much impossible for him to be stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta in Base Pre rosat. Base Gotenks Post ain't stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
Also, Kibito Kaioshin thought he stands a chance against Gotenks Buu, is he stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Of course, he isn't.
Another problem is that, that would make Base Gotenks above SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, SSJ Goten and Trunks put together, even though, according to guidebooks is pretty much impossible for him to be stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta in Base Pre rosat. Base Gotenks Post ain't stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
Also, Kibito Kaioshin thought he stands a chance against Gotenks Buu, is he stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Of course, he isn't.
So, why SSJ Gotenks' speed needs to be tested, if he is like 20x stronger than Goku or more? Why SSJ Gotenks can't defeat Fat Buu in 1 minute whereas SSJ3 Goku can kill a stronger Buu (Kid Buu) in that amount of time?
Thing is, that Fusions has always been portrayed to have cocky attitude, as well as Kibito Kaioshin judgment was wrong, Gotenks can be. There are no absolutes and implications can be inferred one way or another.
Even then, there's no area in which Majin Vegeta < Base Gotenks could work.
Thing is, that Fusions has always been portrayed to have cocky attitude, as well as Kibito Kaioshin judgment was wrong, Gotenks can be. There are no absolutes and implications can be inferred one way or another.
Piccolo can immediately tell when the failed fusions appeared, as well as they doesn't seem to be anything impressive. So, also Piccolo can't tell how powerful Gotenks is in relation to Goten and Trunks to not realize that the fusion was either a successful or a failure?
So, going by that concept, Kibito Kaioshin should be either stronger or in Ultimate Gohan's league. Because in Kibito Kaioshin's mind he can help both Goku and Gohan against Gotenks Buu.
Both Gotenks and Kibito Kaioshin were insulted due to their reckless decissions they were trying to made by Piccolo and Old Kaioshin respectively...
So, are you trying to make a case in which Base Gotenks at full strength could actually damage Buu, even though, Gotenks comments imply he is trying his best and is failing?
Piccolo can immediately tell when the failed fusions appeared, as well as they doesn't seem to be anything impressive. So, also Piccolo can't tell how powerful Gotenks is in relation to Goten and Trunks to not realize that the fusion was either a successful or a failure?
Yeah, because he saw the immediacy of the failures before, he isn't sure that this fusion went through correctly. The power is certainly there, but what about speed? Is it there as well?
So, going by that concept, Kibito Kaioshin should be either stronger or in Ultimate Gohan's league. Because in Kibito Kaioshin's mind he can help both Goku and Gohan against Gotenks Buu.
Sure, but to come to that conclusion of their strength needs to be recognized. Base Gotenks should be uberly powerful as suggested. He's beyond Super Saiyan 3 tier just a week later. He should be Super Saiyan 2 tier initially. Base Vegetto is uberly strong, he's Buuhan tier, but his Super Saiyan power isn't enough to tank Buutenks' ki blasts. So we have proof Super Saiyan is a small boost for fusions.
So, are you trying to make a case in which Base Gotenks at full strength could actually damage Buu, even though, Gotenks comments imply he is trying his best and is failing?
Gotenks did use full strength, he is much stronger than his previous power as Super Saiyan and Goku's Super Saiyan 3, it's just that Super Buu is far, far stronger than they anticipated.
Yeah, because he saw the immediacy of the failures before, he isn't sure that this fusion went through correctly. The power is certainly there, but what about speed? Is it there as well?
Even though, he called Base Gotenks incredible before?
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Also, it's pretty much unlikely for speed to be an issue considering that he flew rapidly towards Buu and could come back previously, this is without mentioning that he is already learned from 3rd form Freeza that strength correlates with power:
Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P9.4
Piccolo: “Damn him! You may be more powerful, but I’m faster! You couldn’t catch up to me even if you spent your entire lifetime!”
He is trying to gather (or in this case recovering) enough power to destroy Kid Buu, so he can't regenerate. I doubt that his plan would be to let any cell remaining of him, especially considering the Genkidama case.
Sure, but to come to that conclusion of their strength needs to be recognized. Base Gotenks should be uberly powerful as suggested. He's beyond Super Saiyan 3 tier just a week later. He should be Super Saiyan 2 tier initially. Base Vegetto is uberly strong, he's Buuhan tier, but his Super Saiyan power isn't enough to tank Buutenks' ki blasts. So we have proof Super Saiyan is a small boost for fusions.
Yet, he wasn't, in both cases both were carefree. Hmmm no, Gotenks isn't SSJ3 tier, Goku have enough power to kill either Fat Buu or Kid Buu in one minute if he goes all out, SSJ Gotenks doesn't have anything like this, but at the very least, he can't kill the weakest one of the two in one minute.
How do you know wheter SSJ Vegetto can't tank Gohan Buu or not? Vegeta being slightly stronger than Trunks got hit by his blast being off guard and got unaffected.
Gotenks did use full strength, he is much stronger than his previous power as Super Saiyan and Goku's Super Saiyan 3, it's just that Super Buu is far, far stronger than they anticipated.
Hmmm no, SSJ Goku can make a hole through his body with regular ki blast, not even a charged one or a Kamehameha, his punches in an even more powerful transformation should be far tougher than that. Base Super Buu's own level doesn't change until absorptions take place and he start getting more and more powerful, at least that is what it is actually suggested.
Indeed. We know Super Saiyan Gotenks power is not the issue. His power is incredible. So Piccolo wanting to see his speed is to just make sure his fusion went correctly.
Indeed. We know Super Saiyan Gotenks power is not the issue. His power is incredible. So Piccolo wanting to see his speed is to just make sure his fusion went correctly.
You can't speak for everyone... There is no confirmation and it's a vague statement at best. 3rd form Freeza's case, as well as him being unable to watch 4th form Freeza's attacks already disproven Piccolo's notion that speed doesn't correlate with power, especially when it comes to a power up.
That wasn't actually suggested or hinted... in fact, Gohan can tell that Fat Buu is still alive, also Fat Buu doesn't seem to be weaker than a holding back SSJ3 Goku in the fight they had.
You can't speak for everyone... There is no confirmation and it's a vague statement at best. 3rd form Freeza's case, as well as him being unable to watch 4th form Freeza's attacks already disproven Piccolo's notion that speed doesn't correlate with power, especially when it comes to a power up.
That wasn't actually suggested or hinted... in fact, Gohan can tell that Fat Buu is still alive, also Fat Buu doesn't seem to be weaker than a holding back SSJ3 Goku in the fight they had.
What I think is that is a pretty weird case; Piccolo should know that if Gotenks' power is incredible, his speed also is. 3rd form and 4th form Freeza's cases already has shown him how incredible increases power and speed can offer after getting a power up, especially when he understimated his speed, but was catched not so much afterwards, even then, in Gotenks' case, he doesn't seem that he wants him to defeat Fat Buu even if he could've done it.
