Base Saiyans > Piccolo experiment

[ahill1]

Cell Games

Piccolo 75
Trunks SSJ 90
Vegeta SSJ 94
Cell Junior 100
Goku SSJ 150
Gohan SSJ 200

Boo Saga

Piccolo 80
Base Gohan 80
~SSJ 160
Base Vegeta 100
~SSJ 200
Base Goku 120
~SSJ 240


How do those look?

 

[Jeff Styles]

Looks good.

 

[ahill1]

base saiyans looking strong instead of piccolo looking weak

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But what about Shin? Shouldn't he be weaker than Base Saiyans as well, yet worlds above Piccolo? And if Base Saiyans > Piccolo, it's all the base saiyans, including Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo: 50
SSJ Vegeta/Trunks: 60
Cell Jr: 65
SSJ Goku: 100
SSJ Gohan: 200

Piccolo: 50
Kaioshin: 75
Gohan: 75
SSJ: 150
Vegeta: 90
SSJ: 180
Goku: 112,5
SSJ: 225

I'd have something like this.

 

[Jeff Styles]

But what about Shin? Shouldn't he be weaker than Base Saiyans as well, yet worlds above Piccolo? And if Base Saiyans > Piccolo, it's all the base saiyans, including Gohan.

I don't think Shin is weaker than the Base Saiyans. Goku and Gohan thought Kibito was no regular fighter. Gohan was unsure if he can beats Kibito without transforming. Shin seems like the strongest between him and Kibito.

SSJ Saiyans > Kaioshin > Base Saiyans ~ Kibito

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Good, but i can't stand Ahill outshining me. I'll do mine soon.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Here's the thing.

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans

fact.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's the thing.

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans

fact.

Except that Base Saiyans are >>> Freeza.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Here's the thing.

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans

fact.

Except that Base Saiyans are >>> Freeza.

Nope, Base Saiyans doesn't have feats post Freeza arc.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's the thing.

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans

fact.

Except that Base Saiyans are >>> Freeza.

Nope, Base Saiyans doesn't have feats post Freeza arc.

What about beating guys Shin knew he couldn't beat? Or the kids fighting evenly with 18? It's either take statements and feats from the original work, or taking one quote of that a series full of holes on power scaling that wasn't even on the author's agenda.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Except that Base Saiyans are >>> Freeza.

Nope, Base Saiyans doesn't have feats post Freeza arc.

What about beating guys Shin knew he couldn't beat? Or the kids fighting evenly with 18? It's either take statements and feats from the original work, or taking one quote of that a series full of holes on power scaling that wasn't even on the author's agenda.

Beating guys like Pocus who thought that he can beat Vegeta on his planet because of the 10x gravity which is one of DBZ's lowest feat? Maybe Kaioshin is probably a lot weaker than I thought.

As for fighting against #18, the kids got destroyed by #18 hence they turn into a SSjin.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Beating guys like Pocus who thought that he can beat Vegeta on his planet because of the 10x gravity which is one of DBZ's lowest feat? Maybe Kaioshin is probably a lot weaker than I thought.

As for fighting against #18, the kids got destroyed by #18 hence they turn into a SSjin.

What's the trouble with the 10G thing? Pocus thought Vegeta was an earthling used to 1G, so 10G would make him 10x slower. Gravity feats doesn't correlate with power, considering Kid Trunks struggled with 150G earlier, yet he'd kill 100G Goku by staring at him.

They weren't destroyed. They blocked 18 punches and kicks, the only momment 18 really hit them was when she knocked them to the ground, and they recovered pretty fast from that. Trunks even implies it was the costume that hold them back:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”
Note (By Saiyaman): Trunks says they can't win "Like this" and wants to become SSJ. Some can say he's talking about the base forms power, but he says even as SSJs they can't win on a H2H fight, implying the it was the costume that hold them back all the time.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

What's the trouble with the 10G thing? Pocus thought Vegeta was an earthling used to 1G, so 10G would make him 10x slower. Gravity feats doesn't correlate with power, considering Kid Trunks struggled with 150G earlier, yet he'd kill 100G Goku by staring at him.

Vegeta is already faster than Pocus on Earth's gravity, with 10x gravity Vegeta should still be faster than Pocus as well. It's just a poor writing especially since that logic fails.

They weren't destroyed. They blocked 18 punches and kicks, the only momment 18 really hit them was when she knocked them to the ground, and they recovered pretty fast from that. Trunks even implies it was the costume that hold them back:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”
Note (By Saiyaman): Trunks says they can't win "Like this" and wants to become SSJ. Some can say he's talking about the base forms power, but he says even as SSJs they can't win on a H2H fight, implying the it was the costume that hold them back all the time.

The costume did hold them back but #18 wasn't serious either by judging her expression which was the same expression when she fought Vegeta. This fight is not really a good example since both were holding back but in the kids's case, the costume were holding them back.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta is already faster than Pocus on Earth's gravity, with 10x gravity Vegeta should still be faster than Pocus as well. It's just a poor writing especially since that logic fails.

But was he 10x faster? I dunno.

The costume did hold them back but #18 wasn't serious either by judging her expression which was the same expression when she fought Vegeta. This fight is not really a good example since both were holding back but in the kids's case, the costume were holding them back.

She seems pretty concentrated, while she was smilling during the fight with Vegeta. And if #18, was holding back, why don't she just get serious and knock them out of the ring? #17 seems to know how to hold back pretty well, considering how he knocked out SSjin Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan without killing them only by seeing their movements, and there is no reason to assume #18 can't hold back like that.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But was he 10x faster? I dunno.

So since he's slower than Vegeta but he needs the 10x gravity in order for Vegeta to get slow but that should make him even more slow, doesn't it? Clearly Babidi and his henchmen are bunch of ignorants and throw Kaioshin there as well.

She seems pretty concentrated, while she was smilling during the fight with Vegeta. And if #18, was holding back, why don't she just get serious and knock them out of the ring? #17 seems to know how to hold back pretty well, considering how he knocked out SSjin Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan without killing them only by seeing their movements, and there is no reason to assume #18 can't hold back like that.

Because she was curious in the beginning of the fight since Mighty Mask knocked out the other competitors despite of his little hands and she knows very well that Krillin and Tienshinhan are the strongest human then who the hell is Mighty Mask?

Spoiler

Still this fight is a poor example of the Base Saiyans power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So since he's slower than Vegeta but he needs the 10x gravity in order for Vegeta to get slow but that should make him even more slow, doesn't it? Clearly Babidi and his henchmen are bunch of ignorants and throw Kaioshin there as well.

So what's the point in using 10G then? But anyway, we are getting of topic. 10G doesn't trows Pocus on Saiyan Arc tier or something. Babidi could have recruited Freeza, yet he choosed Pocus to be his fodder tier.

she was curious in the beginning of the fight since Mighty Mask knocked out the other competitors despite of his little hands and she knows very well that Krillin and Tienshinhan are the strongest human then who the hell is Mighty Mask?

Spoiler

Still this fight is a poor example of the Base Saiyans power.

Yeah, i agree she didn't start all out, when they started the kids were blocking all her hits. But this doesn't explains why she didn't one shot them after the fight started, she should be able to guess how strong they are after some spar. Hell, she could say Vegeta was holding back during their fight, why wouldn't she be able to tell how strong is someone she's fighting?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

So what's the point in using 10G then? But anyway, we are getting of topic. 10G doesn't trows Pocus on Saiyan Arc tier or something. Babidi could have recruited Freeza, yet he choosed Pocus to be his fodder tier.

Babidi and Dabura can't sense ki iirc. Also they were on Earth 300 years ago which is probably before Freeza's family came into the scene.

Spoiler

Even if Freeza already ruled the universe then that doesn't stop from Babidi for recruiting Pocus since he recruited him because he's the champion from his planet that's all. Moreover, even Vegeta said that Babidi didn't even do his research properly. There are lots of questions we can come up from this arc, like if Beerus was amazed that a Saiyan defeated Freeza then shouldn't Kaioshin be amaze as well and should interest him to check Goku out?

Yeah, i agree she didn't start all out, when they started the kids were blocking all her hits. But this doesn't explains why she didn't one shot them after the fight started, she should be able to guess how strong they are after some spar. Hell, she could say Vegeta was holding back during their fight, why wouldn't she be able to tell how strong is someone she's fighting?

Because she was more curious on who's behind that outfit and why they're so strong.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Which wasn't the case with Vegeta but we all know that she was indeed holding back.

 

[ahill1]

But what about Shin? Shouldn't he be weaker than Base Saiyans as well, yet worlds above Piccolo? And if Base Saiyans > Piccolo, it's all the base saiyans, including Gohan.

I'd have Kaioshin right around base Vegeta. That works well with Kaioshin's reactions towards base Vegeta imo, I don't think he necessarily does have to be weaker.

Well, if we are using the implications of Dabura and Babidi choosing the base Saiyans and yet treating Piccolo like trash, then you're right. But when going with base > Piccolo, I consider more the implications laid out at the Budokai, such as Gohan suggesting that everyone fights in base knowing full well Piccolo will be entering. Considering that, Gohan being around the power of a Piccolo > his CG self still works imo, with Vegeta being a good deal above that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Babidi and Dabura can't sense ki iirc. Also they were on Earth 300 years ago which is probably before Freeza's family came into the scene.

Spoiler

Even if Freeza already ruled the universe then that doesn't stop from Babidi for recruiting Pocus since he recruited him because he's the champion from his planet that's all. Moreover, even Vegeta said that Babidi didn't even do his research properly. There are lots of questions we can come up from this arc, like if Beerus was amazed that a Saiyan defeated Freeza then shouldn't Kaioshin be amaze as well and should interest him to check Goku out?

So Freeza wasn't rulling the universe 300 years ago because Babidi didn't find jack on earth? Freeza's Empire is way out of the Solar System. This was random AF, man.

They have that Kili thing. And they seem to be able to sense in a really vague way, considering how they knew Saiyans > Piccolo, even though Base Saiyans are fodder to Piccolo. If Babidi can tell the Saiyans are hiding power, why he wouldn't be able to do the same with Freeza? And if he pick those guys based on reputation only, why he wouldn't pick the tyrant of the universe?

Because she was more curious on who's behind that outfit and why they're so strong.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Which wasn't the case with Vegeta but we all know that she was indeed holding back.

So she was so curious that she risked her chances of winning the price?