Base Toppo got stronger after Zen Exhibition Match theory

[Natasha Romanoff]

As shown is this thread, Base Toppo was equal to a rusty SSB Goku in the Zen Exhibition Match:

Natasha's opinion on who is stronger: Hit (mini arc) vs Toppo (Zen Exhibition Match)

First of all, Hit was clearly stronger than SSj Blue Goku even holding back as he was the first one to step up after receiving a Kamehameha from him and Goku said he was one step ahead of him: I can compare Hit superiority over Goku like Cell over Goku: So, to create a paralelism for the...

dbzeta.net

Then, he come out being even with a Post Rosat SSB Vegeta. But, to define better this it has to be used Dyspo as a reference.

In the fight between Dyspo and Hit it is said that Hit is in trouble due to not being able to use his killing techniques, therefore we'll use holding back Hit as a reference:

Spoiler

Dyspo was too fast for Hit to watch, therefore, it requires at least a 1.33 gap based on Vegeta vs Kkx3 Goku:

Spoiler

Hit: 100
Dyspo: 133

Then, we have that Dyspo in speed is below Golden Freeza, SSB Goku, Vegeta and Base Toppo.

Spoiler

As well as that Golden Freeza and SSB Goku were the strongest members of U7, therefore:

Dyspo: 133
Base Toppo: 142/143
SSB Vegeta: 142/143
SSB Goku: 149
Golden Freeza: 156/157

Possible other scenarios and its low passes:

*Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku, yet he was powerless and useless against Base Toppo
*Gohan vs SSB Goku fight
*Android 17 was said to be a threat, yet he couldn't do jack to Base Toppo

Low passes:
*Rival is a relative terms, SSB Goku is said to rival Sidra yet Golden Freeza was sweating bullets to control a Hakai from him
*SSB Goku could pretty much had been suppressed and it was said that Goku just used SSB to motivate his partners
*Android 17 can be a threat with other aspects that has nothing to do with the power

Downscalling Hit version (in this version we'll assume Hit is just as strong as SSB Goku)
OG Base Toppo (pre red aura power up): 81
Goku (Zen Exhibition Match): 81
Hit: 90
Goku: 90
Dyspo: 120
SSB Vegeta: 126.9/127
Base Toppo: 126.9/127
SSB Goku: 133.95
Freeza: 141

Downscalling Freeza version
OG Toppo: 81
Goku: 81
Goku: 90
Hit: 100
Dyspo: 133
Base Toppo: 138.7/139.65
SSB Vegeta: 138.7/139.65
SSB Goku: 146/147
Freeza: 146/147

Referencial placements

Red Goku: 49.6
Android 17: 133.25
Ultimate Gohan: 133.25
Base Toppo: 142/143
Base Toppo beam clash vs 17: 177.5/178.75

Downscalling Hit version
Red Goku: 44.65/45
Android 17: 118.96/119
Ultimate Gohan: 118.96/119
Base Toppo: 126.9/127
Base Toppo beam clash vs 17: 158.625/158.75

Downscalling Freeza version
Red Goku: 48.6/49
Ultimate Gohan: 130
Android 17: 130
Base Toppo: 138.7/139.65
Base Toppo beam clash vs 17: 173

"SSG Goku did better than Hit against Dyspo"

Goku knew how to predict Dyspo's speed as opposed to Hit, he said that so long as he can time it right, it ain't too hard:

Spoiler

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD
@GreatSaiyaman123

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How did Goku get stronger? You think he improved during the recruitment? Maybe when he trained with Whis in the chamber?

After our debates on Goku vs Hit, I think I’ll agree that Hit was at least as strong as Goku, if not a bit stronger. Goku used all his energy to break the pocket dimension. Hit could’ve killed him right after that if he wanted.

 

[SIAD]

I think after the Mini Arc Hit, Goku kept getting stronger a bit, then he stopped training.

Goku SSJB (Exhibition Tournament) > Goku SSJB (Arc Hit) > Hit (Arc Hit).

I think Vegeta was twice as powerful as Goku at the start of ToP, until Goku matched him in his match against Ribrianne. Goku definitely got a lot stronger in his fight against Caulifla and Kefla, but by the time they faced off against Agnilasa, Goku was so damaged that he was at Vegeta's level.

Goku and Vegeta got stronger by any amount, when they faced Jiren.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

How did Goku get stronger? You think he improved during the recruitment? Maybe when he trained with Whis in the chamber?

When he trained with Whis in the chamber.

After our debates on Goku vs Hit, I think I’ll agree that Hit was at least as strong as Goku, if not a bit stronger. Goku used all his energy to break the pocket dimension. Hit could’ve killed him right after that if he wanted.

That is good to hear.

@SIAD
Goku was said to had been training hard when Hit rematch took place, then he states that he is getting out of shape and Beerus remarks on the same.

Also, I just think Goku ever got stronger in Episode 123 as Jiren said that his fists are getting sharper. In Vegeta's case it was just Evolved Blue and his rage boost.

 

[Goku9001]

Blue Goku (ToP)/Blue Vegeta (ToP) ~ Kaioken Blue Goku (Exhibition) ~ Toppo.

Vegeta was training in the RoSaT prior to the ToP and Goku was likely training and getting stronger during the recruitment phase. During their final battle against Jiren, both Saiyans obviously got much stronger.

 

[SIAD]

Blue Goku (ToP)/Blue Vegeta (ToP) ~ Kaioken Blue Goku (Exhibition) ~ Toppo.

Vegeta was training in the RoSaT prior to the ToP and Goku was likely training and getting stronger during the recruitment phase. During their final battle against Jiren, both Saiyans obviously got much stronger.

Do you think that after the fight between Golden Frieza vs Goku SSJB, Goku got a Zenkai Power or a Power Up?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Blue Goku (ToP)/Blue Vegeta (ToP) ~ Kaioken Blue Goku (Exhibition) ~ Toppo.

Or Toppo ain't using that power on Vegeta, as he just use something similar against 17.

Blue Goku and Golden Freeza were the strongest of U7 until Vegeta got Evolved Blue.

Vegeta was training in the RoSaT prior to the ToP and Goku was likely training and getting stronger during the recruitment phase. During their final battle against Jiren, both Saiyans obviously got much stronger.

I agree. Vegeta got Evolved Blue which makes him concentrate a power much greater than Blue in his body.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku trained for 1 hour at most. That's not even close to enough for Goku to become so much powerful. Vegeta had been left behind since the Merged Zamasu fight, and only closed the gap between them.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku trained for 1 hour at most. That's not even close to enough for Goku to become so much powerful.

Saiyans potential is limitless. On top of it, character power gains are arbitrary and we can't actually make sense of it.

Vegeta had been left behind since the Merged Zamasu fight, and only closed the gap between them.

Both Goku and Vegeta were always too weak against Merged Zamasu, other than him letting them do what they did, which was the case with Vegeta, Trunks and Goku defeating him in the beam struggle.

 

[Goku9001]

Do you think that after the fight between Golden Frieza vs Goku SSJB, Goku got a Zenkai Power or a Power Up?

I'm not sure. That was right before the tournament started so he probably made the bulk of his improvement prior.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hit: 100
Dyspo: 112.5
SSJB Vegeta/Toppo: 120
SSJB Goku/Golden Freeza: 125

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Hit: 100
Dyspo: 112.5
SSJB Vegeta/Toppo: 120
SSJB Goku/Golden Freeza: 125

I have to say that is a better approach as to make inflated gaps of 1.33x from Hit to Dyspo based on him being unable to watch Dyspo.

Only think I disagree is that SSJB Goku is a little below Golden Freeza.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have to say that is a better approach as to make inflated gaps of 1.33x from Hit to Dyspo based on him being unable to watch Dyspo.

Only think I disagree is that SSJB Goku is a little below Golden Freeza.

1.1x is closer to Vegeta vs Zarbon, and Vegeta compared Zarbon to a statue. Hit also caught up pretty easily, but that might be because of his adapting powers.

Why? Because Goku didn’t KO Freeza out of Golden form?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Well, actually, now that I think about it, maybe Dyspo being that fast to Hit ain't a power thing, but him taking advantages of his long ears to manage to do that.

Yes, it's not like Freeza can't lose his Golden form with one hit as shown on here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, actually, now that I think about it, maybe Dyspo being that fast to Hit ain't a power thing, but him taking advantages of his long ears to manage to do that.

It was never a power thing. I thought we were talking exclusively about his speed. Dyspo's raw power is below 4th form Freeza's.

That makes sense. His ears tell him when Hit is about to use timeskip (i.e., to attack), and you leave yourself open when you're about to attack.

Yes, it's not like Freeza can't lose his Golden form with one hit as shown on here.

But Jiren >>>>> Goku. I always thought that was just Freeza's durability, he took a lot of punishment on Namek too. Whis says they're equals, so I think the difference is negligible.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It was never a power thing. I thought we were talking exclusively about his speed. Dyspo's raw power is below 4th form Freeza's.

That makes sense. His ears tell him when Hit is about to use timeskip (i.e., to attack), and you leave yourself open when you're about to attack.

His power comes along with his speed as he is completely dependent on that, in strength, Dyspo is fairly below anyone he faces.

But Jiren >>>>> Goku. I always thought that was just Freeza's durability, he took a lot of punishment on Namek too. Whis says they're equals, so I think the difference is negligible.

I'm not saying that Goku is coming close to Jiren, is just a representation that he can lose his Golden form with a bad punch in which Goku was not strong enough to make him get out of golden.

Goku being more durable than Freeza or Freeza being more durable than Goku is relative as Kkx10 Goku didn't got oneshotted by 50% Freeza and Freeza was constantly admiring how tough he is even when SSJ Goku comes after him.

It was Beerus the one that said that. And many events, characters' statements has been contradicted by facts, which is the case on this.