Base Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Piccolo (Cell Games)

Goku9001

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I'll take a crack at this one @Goku9001.



I agree with this, however I don't believe Piccolo needs to be that far below 50% Goku to satisfy this. Piccolo knew 50% Goku had no chance against Cell as Goku had already established that after leaving the RoSaT. Piccolo is also smart enough to understand that Goku's 50% display wasn't his full power, so even if Piccolo got close to that level, he should know that he would be useless against Cell. I've always had Piccolo = 40% Goku which I believe works with the implications.
The main takeaway is that Goku isn't believed to be that far off from Cell whereas Piccolo is completely useless. It's more comparable to Vegeta vs. First Form Frieza where even Gohan and Kuririn, despite being significantly weaker than Vegeta, were still capable of contributing towards the fight. Here, Piccolo is a complete liability and isn't worth considering even if his role is support. Even with the expectation that Piccolo knew that 50% MSSJ Goku wasn't necessarily his full power, it couldn't have been too far off base. For Piccolo to be a complete liability would mean he should be multifolds weaker than 50% MSSJ Goku.

The problem I have with this is Cell immediately instructed the Jrs to make the Z Senshi feel pain, or even kill them if they wished. We see that all of the humans were swiftly beaten until they were unconscious, and yet Piccolo is seen fighting back on several pages, let alone the chapter cover page where he looks like he's somewhat competitive. Why would Piccolo still be in relatively good shape if the Jrs had no problem nearly killing the humans? There's also the fact that the strength checker makes it clear that Cell isn't 100% only saying that Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own, there is some ambiguity there.
Not really. We've already established that Piccolo is weaker than 50% MSSJ Goku let alone Vegeta/Trunks, the exclusion of Piccolo makes no sense in this context if Piccolo was equal to Vegeta/Trunks, and Cell's assumption of Vegeta or Trunks being the warrior Goku was talking about already sheds any doubt as to whether or not Piccolo could compete with the Cell Juniors. There is no logical explanation for Piccolo to have fared just as well as Vegeta and Trunks unless the Cell Juniors were holding back and having fun with him. At that point, how much they were holding back would be arbitrary. Nappa aimed to kill the Z Senshi despite being suppressed so I don't see this as a proper counterargument here.

This is admittedly the hardest one to hand wave. I've always looked at it as Vegeta only having interest in fighting/beating the Saiyans. Considering how hyper-focused he was on Goku during that day, can we really say with confidence that Piccolo was on his radar?
It's impossible to handwave. You would legitimately have to believe that Vegeta is retarded and doesn't know how a tournament works and judging by his smirk when he miraculously gets to battle Goku in the first round seems to imply that he was aware of the possibility of battling other competitors.

Can you expand on this one?
Goku and Vegeta only believed Kibito and Kaioshin were potential threats during the tournament. Gohan seemed to agree with this but didn't believe Super Saiyan was necessary against Kibito despite believing that Kibito and Kaioshin were the strongest in a tournament including Piccolo.

This one is an odd one because even though they understood that the Saiyans had the most power, they were also confident that Pui Pui would be able to beat them, along with Kaioshin. The Z Senshi were all suppressed to 0 so I'm not sure how much we can really take away from this when we saw how clueless Babidi and Dabra were later on.

I believe this is one of those debates that will be around forever. Both sides have inconsistencies that have to be written off to suit their own argument. Looking forward to seeing what you have to say.
Babidi and Dabura had to have based it off of some other metric because regardless of whether or not they were suppressed, they knew that the Saiyans had to be capable of filling the Buu meter and that was before Super Saiyan was revealed to them. The only thing that this suggests is that the Saiyans power was far too large to be comprehended which is implied by many of Kaioshin's reactions within Babidi's ship. For Babidi, this was revealed the moment Base Vegeta absolutely trounced Pui Pui.
 

FeatsofPower

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It's impossible to handwave. You would legitimately have to believe that Vegeta is retarded and doesn't know how a tournament works and judging by his smirk when he miraculously gets to battle Goku in the first round seems to imply that he was aware of the possibility of battling other competitors.
Precisely.

by many of Kaioshin's reactions within Babidi's ship. For Babidi, this was revealed the moment Base Vegeta absolutely trounced Pui Pui.
And remember, Kaioshin just explicitly spoke about how little of a threat Freeza was, all to be astonished at Vegeta wrecking Pui Pui.

Pui Pui is way above Freeza.
 

FeatsofPower

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This is why you the goat. Just "slap you silly, right in front of your face" points while we flounder to try to explain some intricate point to the tenth level that is getting us nowhere and boom Pyro with the delicate bomb casually wrecking all discussion. My man.
 

Goku9001

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It's nearly impossible to handwave. Goku explicitly said that only Kibito and Kaioshin were the ones to watch out for. Kuririn is the only one shown to be worried about the other competitors. Even disregarding Vegeta because of arroagance cop out, Goku's statement is indisputable unless he's retarded and forgot about his favorite green man who happened to be right next to him.

0244-004.png

Gohan is only worried once it was revealed that they could potentially be much stronger than Piccolo and yet Gohan doesn't even consider Super Saiyan until he was asked to transform.
 

FeatsofPower

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Well, it's really not the fans fault here though. When the author does something so jarring that even 30 years later people are having a hard time accepting it, you probably did something to garner that reaction.

The Base Saiyans went from being over 50x weaker than a newly formed Piccolo, to perhaps 10x stronger than a ROSAT trained, plus 7 years trained Piccolo on top of that. Which is absurd considering Piccolo has always kept up with the Saiyans pretty well.

Just look at these numbers.

Base Saiyans Pre Rosat 1
Super Saiyans Pre Rosat 50
Kamiccolo 75
Kamiccolo + 8 years Training 150
Base Saiyans Post Rosat 1,500
Super Saiyan Post Rosat 75,000


This is literally the gap I'm using more or less and of course it's absurd. But this seems to be much more in line with what Toriyama is trying to portray then what we generally assume.

Plus we all love Piccolo. He gets absurd hax and we don't even care, we will excuse his haxes all the time because he's our dear green man. He's the Batman of Dragonball haxes, we just do not care.

Also, this is literal ground breaking stuff. I've never seen this idea pushed to this extreme. We had some of those guys in that Seth the Programmer place arguing for extreme Base Saiyans power but at the detriment of MSSJ logic that clearly applies. This is how it was always intended to be done. We finally got it right after all these years. New discoveries in this game is always amazing to embrace.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Never understood the Kaioshin/Kibito argument. If Gohan won’t use SSJ why would he be thinking about it? He’d rather lose than get his identity exposed, that’s why he came up with the rule in the first place.

Did Vegeta ever actually plan to win the Budokai? He just wants Goku. He doesn’t care about 1st place among a bunch of nobodies. I wouldn’t be surprised if he planned to quit after beating Goku. IIRC he quits the 28th Budokai after Goku ran away.
 

FeatsofPower

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He just wants Goku.
He wants Goku, so he's not going to agree to lose to Piccolo if he ends up fighting him first. You have to accept the narrative here.

Vegeta's only concern is Goku, and Base is more than enough to deal with all contestants that are not Goku.

Everything suggest Base > Everything.
 

Goku9001

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Never understood the Kaioshin/Kibito argument. If Gohan won’t use SSJ why would he be thinking about it? He’d rather lose than get his identity exposed, that’s why he came up with the rule in the first place.

Did Vegeta ever actually plan to win the Budokai? He just wants Goku. He doesn’t care about 1st place among a bunch of nobodies. I wouldn’t be surprised if he planned to quit after beating Goku. IIRC he quits the 28th Budokai after Goku ran away.
I have no idea what you're talking about. He doesn't think about Super Saiyan until Kibito and Piccolo bring it up.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I have no idea what you're talking about. He doesn't think about Super Saiyan until Kibito and Piccolo bring it up.

Exactly. You're saying Gohan doesn't think SSJ is needed but he's not even thinking of SSJ at all.

He wants Goku, so he's not going to agree to lose to Piccolo if he ends up fighting him first. You have to accept the narrative here.

Vegeta's only concern is Goku, and Base is more than enough to deal with all contestants that are not Goku.

Everything suggest Base > Everything.

Yeah, everything else is just secondary. Maybe he's just obsessed, but Vegeta's line is pretty straightforward. He's like "Super Saiyan? Who needs that banana hairdo?"
 

Goku9001

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Exactly. You're saying Gohan doesn't think SSJ is needed but he's not even thinking of SSJ at all.



Yeah, everything else is just secondary. Maybe he's just obsessed, but Vegeta's line is pretty straightforward. He's like "Super Saiyan? Who needs that banana hairdo?"
If he's not even considering Super Saiyan, then it obviously means he doesn't need it. There is literally no logic in what you're saying.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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If he's not even considering Super Saiyan, then it obviously means he doesn't need it. There is literally no logic in what you're saying.

He thinks he might be able to do it in base. Why would he go SSJ if there's a chance base might do the job?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Gohan: "We should fight in base to hide our identities"
Also Gohan: *Doesn't think about transforming*

Brother
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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So Gohan is contemplating his possibility in winning this and believes he can win by using his superhuman abilities i.e his base power?

It's more than that. He's wondering if he can do it easily so he can pretend he's not superhuman. Look at the full statement, he's still trying to salvage his secret identity somehow.
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”
0249-009.png
 

Goku9001

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It's more than that. He's wondering if he can do it easily so he can pretend he's not superhuman. Look at the full statement, he's still trying to salvage his secret identity somehow.

0249-009.png
And then he admits to not being able to salvage the situation and contemplates how he can win. Super Saiyan was never factored into winning which would be something considered if absolutely necessary.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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And then he admits to not being able to salvage the situation and contemplates how he can win. Super Saiyan was never factored into winning which would be something considered if absolutely necessary.

When? He just recaps the situation (he wore a disguise to use his powers without revealing his identity) and now, without his costume, he wonders if he can still fight without using his powers. The panels are saying the opposite of what you’re saying.
 

Goku9001

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When? He just recaps the situation (he wore a disguise to use his powers without revealing his identity) and now, without his costume, he wonders if he can still fight without using his powers. The panels are saying the opposite of what you’re saying.
Gohan entered the fight still believing he could win while adhering to the "no Super Saiyan" rule and his thought process remains consistent with this. The only thing he has doubts of is winning by accident. He doesn't doubt his ability to win by showcasing his superhuman abilities i.e base power.
 
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