Broly vs. Jiren - the thread

[Papasmurf]

So since this debate seems to come up quite often, how about we make a thread for it so we can keep the discussion from bleeding into other threads where it's not really relevant?

I personally give the edge to Jiren because the only evidence in favor of Broly is that promotional statement calling him the strongest, which considering that the FnF movie was described as a conflict surpassing Gods, yet featured an antagonist far below the actual gods like Beerus, doesn't hold much weight in my view. Broly was also confirmed only "probably" stronger than Beerus while Jiren was definitely stronger than Belmod, and this was before Jiren tapped into further reserves of his power in both the anime and manga (the manga heavily suggests Jiren was surpassing his limits when he fought MUI Galu and later the base Saiyans).

That's just me though. To each his own.

Thoughts?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

You have to remember that FNF movie was still following Toriyama's power scaling (6,10,15) so that makes Freeza not that far from Beerus.

Anyway, I think it depends on which the movie follows whether it's manga or anime. I do think that the movie follows the manga though.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Conflict surpassing Gods maybe in the sense that "this is personal" kind-of way.

 

[Pyro]

I'm going with Broly. Nothing but the anime suggests Jiren is all that, and I can accept a retcon more than I can accept some bloated chain like Jiren (LB) ~ MUI Goku >>> Jiren > LSSJ Broly >= Beerus. That's just too much for an old fuck like me.

Even the director of the Broly movie didn't think UI Goku had passed Beerus yet.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd go with Broly > Jiren. Along with the promotional material being pretty assertive in stating Broly is the strongest enemy yet, the statements for Jiren being above the Hakaishin have been lacking the same level of assertiveness, the manga guidebook only saying he's rumoured to whilst Whis' statement in the anime comes off more as a deduction and estimation based on the rumours he's heard (not to mention being a completely different route from the manga in terms of the God who surpassed Beerus and Whis only stating that Jiren is on the level of a Hakaishin after he powers up to repel the Genki-Dama).

which considering that the FnF movie was described as a conflict surpassing Gods, yet featured an antagonist far below the actual gods like Beerus, doesn't hold much weight in my view.

Shin counts as a God too.

To be fair, the movie was made at a time when there was even less of a plan going forward than Super now has, what with the infamous 6-10-15 gap and all, and the statement was likely in context to the Battle of Gods between SSG Galu and 70% Beerus, of which was the only Gods the series had to go on at that point.

while Jiren was definitely stronger than Belmod, and this was before Jiren tapped into further reserves of his power in both the anime and manga (the manga heavily suggests Jiren was surpassing his limits when he fought MUI Galu and later the base Saiyans).

Manga Beerus is definitely the strongest Hakaishin though, or at least tied with Quitela, whilst Belmod was aware enough of his limits as to feign defeat in a battle royale despite knowing the punishment for not going all-out.

 

[Papasmurf]

which considering that the FnF movie was described as a conflict surpassing Gods, yet featured an antagonist far below the actual gods like Beerus, doesn't hold much weight in my view.

Shin counts as a God too.

To be fair, the movie was made at a time when there was even less of a plan going forward than Super now has, what with the infamous 6-10-15 gap and all, and the statement was likely in context to the Battle of Gods between SSG Galu and 70% Beerus, of which was the only Gods the series had to go on at that point.

That same movie had Freeza being afraid of Beerus though, so the "conflict surpassing Gods" thing is definitely just false advertisement.

while Jiren was definitely stronger than Belmod, and this was before Jiren tapped into further reserves of his power in both the anime and manga (the manga heavily suggests Jiren was surpassing his limits when he fought MUI Galu and later the base Saiyans).

Manga Beerus is definitely the strongest Hakaishin though, or at least tied with Quitela, whilst Belmod was aware enough of his limits as to feign defeat in a battle royale despite knowing the punishment for not going all-out.

Belmod wasn't even slightly injured in that bout though, so there's little proof the gap between Beerus and Belmod is anything flabbergasting. At the least, it seems Belmod is the third strongest Hakaishin after Quitela and Beerus-senpai.

 

[Pyro]

Belmod is garbage. I could say he's the weakest Hakaishin and ain't nothing in the manga to contradict that.

 

[Papasmurf]

Champa was definitely the most injured Hakaishin by the time that battle royale ended, while Belmod hadn't a scratch. That contradicts Belmod being weaksauce

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Belmod wasn't even slightly injured in that bout though, so there's little proof the gap between Beerus and Belmod is anything flabbergasting. At the least, it seems Belmod is the third strongest Hakaishin after Quitela and Beerus-senpai.

He only took one attack from Liquir iirc before he decided to play possum, so not exactly the most solid feat. Attack-wise, he didn't really show anything too impressive beyond sucker punching Sidra.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Champa was definitely the most injured Hakaishin by the time that battle royale ended, while Belmod hadn't a scratch. That contradicts Belmod being weaksauce

Champa hasn't train in years so who knows how strong he was in his prime, probably around Beerus level which would make Chsmpa one of the strongest Hakaishin.

 

[Papasmurf]

He and Beerus were close in power at one point. They clearly aren't anymore, seeing as Champa is now so weak that Beerus can just knock him out and use him as a decoy with ease.

 

[Pakl]

So SSjin Broli is garbage for Jiren but SSjin FP Broli is probably stronger huh? Just imagine the gap between SSJ FP Broly to SSJ Broli. 15× at least. There is a problem with Broli might be stronger than Beerus. He should be much stronger if Blue Gogeta was required to beat him.

 

[Keedounan]

So SSjin Broli is garbage for Jiren but SSjin FP Broli is probably stronger huh? Just imagine the gap between SSJ FP Broly to SSJ Broli. 15× at least. There is a problem with Broli might be stronger than Beerus. He should be much stronger if Blue Gogeta was required to beat him.

Not necessarily, considering how easily Gogeta dominated him.

 

[Papasmurf]

Gogeta still needed SSJB/CSSJB to do it though, which suggests his SSJG form is at best equal or marginally above Broly (or more likely, weaker) and unable to compete with his adaptation ability.

 

[Keedounan]

Fair enough.

 

[Pakl]

So SSjin Broli is garbage for Jiren but SSjin FP Broli is probably stronger huh? Just imagine the gap between SSJ FP Broly to SSJ Broli. 15× at least. There is a problem with Broli might be stronger than Beerus. He should be much stronger if Blue Gogeta was required to beat him.

Not necessarily, considering how easily Gogeta dominated him.

I was saying it based on SSjin 2 Kefla being perhaps stronger than initial Omen UI Goku