Can ASSjin ~ SSjin2?

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Maybe in terms of power?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I'm not against SSJ2 being the ''correct'' ASSJ.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Well yeah, Goku made it clear that way but what about the early ASSjin?

 

[Papasmurf]

SSJ2 definitely has the greater boost. They aren't similar in power, but similar in concept considering both increase speed and power at the cost of increased stamina loss.

 

[Goku9001]

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

MSSjin wasn't said to be stronger than ASSjin but a better body for stamina and speed.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No.

 

[Goku9001]

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

MSSjin wasn't said to be stronger than ASSjin but a better body for stamina and speed.

Context proves that it was as Goku completely shattered Vegeta's pride after powering up on Korin's tower.

 

[Future Warrior]

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

MSSjin wasn't said to be stronger than ASSjin but a better body for stamina and speed.

Then why don't they ever use grade forms under certain circumstances that would have made it useful?

 

[Goku9001]

Then why don't they ever use grade forms under certain circumstances that would have made it useful?

My theory is that they only serve as a means to tap into the Full Power of a Super Saiyan and since Goku/Gohan already did that through becoming MSSJs, they can no longer make further gains without undergoing the next step, SSJ2. What we're told is that MSSJ is far better even if they can't undergo an even greater transformation. At least that's my interpretation when Vegeta chastised Trunks telling him that Goku/Gohan forgone any extra transformation they could make in favor of a greater and more effective power-boost by remaining as Super Saiyans.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Super-Saiyan Grade-II is just an evolved Super-Saiyan form from the original, where-as Super-Saiyan 2 is a completely different Super-Saiyan transformation superior to the normal Super-Saiyan in every-way.

That was obviously before 2 and 3 were said to be just powered-up versions of the normal Super-Saiyan and the numbering of the forms.

 

[Future Warrior]

My theory is that they only serve as a means to tap into the Full Power of a Super Saiyan and since Goku/Gohan already did that through becoming MSSJs, they can no longer make further gains without undergoing the next step, SSJ2. What we're told is that MSSJ is far better even if they can't undergo an even greater transformation. At least that's my interpretation when Vegeta chastised Trunks telling him that Goku/Gohan forgone any extra transformation they could make in favor of a greater and more effective power-boost by remaining as Super Saiyans.

Interesting... so is there a specific multiplier that the Grade forms/Mastered Super Saiyan has over the original Super Saiyan?

Super-Saiyan Grade-II is just an evolved Super-Saiyan form from the original, where-as Super-Saiyan 2 is a completely different Super-Saiyan transformation superior to the normal Super-Saiyan in every-way.

That was obviously before 2 and 3 were said to be just powered-up versions of the normal Super-Saiyan and the numbering of the forms.

So does that mean you don't believe SS1 needs to be achieved before level 2?

 

[Goku9001]

Interesting... so is there a specific multiplier that the Grade forms/Mastered Super Saiyan has over the original Super Saiyan?

This is where things get complicated. I think the point of Goku's training was to allow their own bodies to acclimate to the strain that the Super Saiyan form and get accustomed to using all of that increased power which allowed their own "base form" to skyrocket as a result which allowed them to make greater gains as an MSSJ. SSJG2 and 3 IMO, do have higher multipliers, but their gains are inhibited by the physical limitations of these forms which prevents them from training extensively and effectively and doesn't allow their own "base forms" to grow nearly as much as it would if they allowed their bodies to get accustomed to the stress. That's how I think the large disparity between ASSJins and MSSJins is explained.

 

[Goku9001]

Interesting... so is there a specific multiplier that the Grade forms/Mastered Super Saiyan has over the original Super Saiyan?

This is where things get complicated. I think the point of Goku's training was to allow their own bodies to acclimate to the strain that the Super Saiyan form and get accustomed to using all of that increased power which allowed their own "base form" to skyrocket as a result which allowed them to make greater gains as an MSSJ. SSJG2 and 3 IMO, do have higher multipliers, but their gains are inhibited by the physical limitations of these forms which prevents them from training extensively and effectively and doesn't allow their own "base forms" to grow nearly as much as it would if they allowed their bodies to get accustomed to the stress. That's how I think the large disparity between ASSJins and MSSJins is explained.

Ugh, accidentally quoted lol.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

My theory is that they only serve as a means to tap into the Full Power of a Super Saiyan and since Goku/Gohan already did that through becoming MSSJs, they can no longer make further gains without undergoing the next step, SSJ2. What we're told is that MSSJ is far better even if they can't undergo an even greater transformation. At least that's my interpretation when Vegeta chastised Trunks telling him that Goku/Gohan forgone any extra transformation they could make in favor of a greater and more effective power-boost by remaining as Super Saiyans.

Interesting... so is there a specific multiplier that the Grade forms/Mastered Super Saiyan has over the original Super Saiyan?

Super-Saiyan Grade-II is just an evolved Super-Saiyan form from the original, where-as Super-Saiyan 2 is a completely different Super-Saiyan transformation superior to the normal Super-Saiyan in every-way.

That was obviously before 2 and 3 were said to be just powered-up versions of the normal Super-Saiyan and the numbering of the forms.

So does that mean you don't believe SS1 needs to be achieved before level 2?

Sorry. I didn't see this before, because I was busy with something-else, but I honestly don't know. Boo Saga would have you believe that Super-Saiyan does need to be achieved before, but then the Cell Saga seems to treat Super-Saiyan 2 as a completely separate transformation superior to regular Super-Saiyan in every-way.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

MSSjin wasn't said to be stronger than ASSjin but a better body for stamina and speed.

Context proves that it was as Goku completely shattered Vegeta's pride after powering up on Korin's tower.

Because Goku powered up overall including his base form. MSSjin is said to be a better control of SSjin, that's all.

Never. ASSJin was explicitly stated and shown to be much weaker than an MSSJ which is presumably a requirement in order to obtain SSJ2. I don't think it can even match SSJ2 even with a similar multiplier.

MSSjin wasn't said to be stronger than ASSjin but a better body for stamina and speed.

Then why don't they ever use grade forms under certain circumstances that would have made it useful?

I can ask about the same thing on Kaioh-ken. Goku can use KK on the top of his MSSjin which shouldn't give him a strain but he didn't because that's not part of the story.

 

[Future Warrior]

I can ask about the same thing on Kaioh-ken. Goku can use KK on the top of his MSSjin which shouldn't give him a strain but he didn't because that's not part of the story.

Who says Kaio-Ken can be stocked on top of Super Saiyan? Surely not the manga.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I can ask about the same thing on Kaioh-ken. Goku can use KK on the top of his MSSjin which shouldn't give him a strain but he didn't because that's not part of the story.

Who says Kaio-Ken can be stocked on top of Super Saiyan? Surely not the manga.

The point is that just because Goku didn't use ASSjin against Cell doesn't mean that MSSjin is stronger but ASSjin is a false form and a waste of time even if its stronger than SSjin. Still there's no evidence to suggest that MSSjin > ASSjin.

 

[Future Warrior]

The point is that just because Goku didn't use ASSjin against Cell doesn't mean that MSSjin is stronger but ASSjin is a false form and a waste of time even if its stronger than SSjin. Still there's no evidence to suggest that MSSjin > ASSjin.

It's wouldn't be a waste of time in some scenarios. Grade 2 didn't stop Vegeta from making Semi Cell his bitch, who was at least on par or even stronger than his Super Saiyan form, same could be said for Goku against Cell. Goku could have easily just used grade 2 or even grade 3 when doing his warp Kamehameha too.

The grade forms are not a literal transformation like how SS2 is to SS1. They are the process of trying to power up while in a Super Saiyan state without training your body to acclimate to that power (conditioning yourself to hold more Ki). Grade 4/FPSSJ does just that but without the change in appearance and strain by having the SS form act as their base state, so nothing hinders them when powering up. So FPSSJ can use strength equivalent of that to the grade forms and beyond. That'S why I don't think grade forms can even be used after mastering Super Saiyan.

 

[Goku9001]

Because Goku powered up overall including his base form. MSSjin is said to be a better control of SSjin, that's all.

MSSJ is also synonymous to "Full Power Super Saiyan" implying that it is better than ASSJ forms.