Cell Saga - Early Boo Saga

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Since I’m officially out the Freeza>Base team this list is sort of both me testing the waters for a new list and trying to work the Base > Piccolo issue.

Trunks Saga

Mecha Freeza: 160
King Cold: 100

SSJ Trunks: 250
SSJ Goku: 300

Androids Saga

SSJ Goku: 480
~ Sick: 360

SSJ Vegeta: 500
SSJ Trunks: 400

Piccolo: 400
~ Fused with Kami: 720
~ Full power: 800
~ Light Grenade: 2,800

Android 18: 750
Android 17: 800
Android 16: 5,000

Imperfect Cell: 600
~ Post absorptions: 5,000

Semi Perfect Cell: 10,000
~ Full power: 15,000

Vegeta (Post Rosat): 200
~ SSJ: 10,000
~ ASSJ: 25,000

Trunks (Post Rosat): 192
~ SSJ: 9,600
~ ASSJ: 24,000
~ USSJ: 240,000

Perfect Cell: 75,000
~ Buffed up: 300,000

SSJ Goku (Post Rosat, 50%): 337,500

Cell Games

SSJ Goku: 675,000
SSJ Vegeta/Trunks: 450,000

SSJ Gohan: 900,000
~ Enraged: 1,350,000
~ SSJ2: 2,700,000

Cell: 750,000
~ Vs Gohan: 937,500
~ Full power: 1,500,000
~ Giant: 2,000,000
~ Zenkai: 2,500,000

Babidi Saga

Gohan: 15,000
~ SSJ: 750,000
~ SSJ2: 1,500,000

Vegeta: 20,000
~ SSJ: 1,000,000
~ SSJ2: 2,000,000

Goku: 30,000
~ SSJ: 1,500,000
~ SSJ2: 3,000,000

Goten: 720
~ SSJ: 36,000

Trunks: 750
~ SSJ: 37,500

Piccolo: 6,000
Kaioshin: 10,000

Pui Pui: 14,000
Yakon: 28,000

@FeatsofPower @Goku9001 @SIAD so what do you guys think? I think that’s a good placement for Piccolo.

 

[SIAD]

It's very good.

I would go up to Future Trunks SSJ (Arc Android) with 450,000,000.

I would add Perfect Cell (Initial) with 24,000,000,000.

Vegeta is slightly superior to Future Trunks in the CG.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The main point here is to try and work the Cell Saga gaps into the Boo Arc chain. Bloat everything to see where the Base Saiyans fit and then work backwards to Piccolo.

I don’t like Base Goku being so close to the SSJ Boys, but it’s better than making Piccolo still weaker than his Cell Saga blast.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Glad to see you aboard the Base > Freeza side.

Interesting angle that you took with Vegeta > Kid Gohan.

There should factually be a limit on Piccolo's power. He's trash to Kaioshin and the Base Adults, but the kids power is somewhat respectable. So I don't think you can make Piccolo too too strong.

You have to keep the boys as close as possible, realistically this looks somewhere around 10x weaker than probably Goku. But it is what it is.

And yes, there's a huge difference between 50x weaker and 10x weaker.

Piccolo is most likely much weaker than Android 16 from the Buu Saga perspective.

The Cell Jr fight has to be reinterpreted from the lens of the later sagas. It's the only way.

I think Piccolo is probably somewhere around 1.5-2x his strength against 17. That's probably going to be the best place to start.

On your list, 1,500 is probably enough for Piccolo I'd say. Maybe try that and lets see how that plays out. I bet it makes things fit way better.

Cell Saga makes you feel like Piccolo is a giant, but Super and Buu Saga reveal the truth, he's absolutely nothing. Rosat did nothing for him, he's complete garbage as Dabura states. It's very possible AT changed his mind, forgot, or whatever, we have to use the later knowledge to supersede the previous knowledge. It's the only logical way.

On your list, Piccolo being 1,200-1,500 is probably the best spot.

I think Cell's buff'd power against Trunks should be the same as it was against Gohan, if not stronger.

I don't think Cell is getting a 10x boost.

I like the 15/20/30 placement for Gohan/Vegeta/Goku. It seems like you've come around to some of the stuff I was talking about in the old chat.

The key is manipulating the Kid Gohan rage boost, to get you where you need to be for Piccolo/Base Boys and so on. This is the only way.

Great work, I know this took you some time.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah I went on the higher side to be sure there was room for everyone, but it’d look better if the boys weren’t barely 2x the base adults. But Goku isn’t really impressed by the SSJ Boys and maybe even a bit disappointed, could this mean anything?

Vegeta > Kid Gohan just happened to work because I don’t see Gohan being so far above CG Goku. Cell thought raising his speed was enough. If Gohan had a rage boost, why would his SSJ need to be any more than 1.25-1.33x Goku? On the other hand, I’m not sure how Vegeta feels about non-enraged CG Gohan.

Anyway, back to formula.

Trunks/18: 750
Piccolo: 2,000
Shin: 3,000
Pui Pui: 3,500
Gohan: 3,750
Vegeta: 5,000
Yakon: 7,000
Goku: 7,500

Goku is 10x the boys, as you asked. I think you might feel this is too tight, but you can just lower Piccolo if you like. I’m satisfied with this as per my points on the other thread.

I’ll try working through the Cell Saga later.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It looks really good that’s a great start

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123 I find your numbers are excellent, maybe you could go with USSJ being 10x SSJ. That way, the characters you have at the level of Future Trunks USSJ and above, divide them by 2.5x. With that you would have Goten SSJ being 3x Goku Base and I think that can work perfectly.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Round 2.

Cell Saga

Piccolo: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 2,500

Semi Cell: 5,000
~ FP: 7,500

SSJ Vegeta: 5,000
~ ASSJ: 12,500

SSJ Trunks: 4,800
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 48,000

Perfect Cell: 37,500
~ Buffed up: 50,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 75,000
~ 100%: 150,000

SSJ Gohan: 200,000

Boo Saga

Gohan: 3,750
~ SSJ: 187,500

Vegeta: 5,000
~ SSJ: 250,000

Goku: 7,500
~ SSJ: 375,000

Yakon: 7,000
Pui Pui: 3,500
Shin: 3,000
Piccolo: 2,000

Much better indeed. SSJ Vegeta > CG SSJ Gohan feels sort of wrong, but I don't think it's contradicted.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Round 2.

Cell Saga

Piccolo: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 2,500

Semi Cell: 5,000
~ FP: 7,500

SSJ Vegeta: 5,000
~ ASSJ: 12,500

SSJ Trunks: 4,800
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 48,000

Perfect Cell: 37,500
~ Buffed up: 50,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 75,000
~ 100%: 150,000

SSJ Gohan: 200,000

Boo Saga

Gohan: 3,750
~ SSJ: 187,500

Vegeta: 5,000
~ SSJ: 250,000

Goku: 7,500
~ SSJ: 375,000

Yakon: 7,000
Pui Pui: 3,500
Shin: 3,000
Piccolo: 2,000

Much better indeed. SSJ Vegeta > CG SSJ Gohan feels sort of wrong, but I don't think it's contradicted.

You are making a lot of progress. It looks like it is possible.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don't think Vegeta > Kid Gohan is all that bad, the massive amount of progress suggested by Vegeta seems to imply it. Vegeta surpassing Kid Gohan seems about right, by how much would be another story.

And then the difference between Vegeta and Goku is the rage boost for Kid Gohan. I kind of like it.

I only go with a little surpassing though. Like 90/100 stuff. 200 to 250 is too much as we are already in a shaky territory. I like either him matching or slightly surpassing Kid Gohan in all things except rage. I think that's about right. But I'm open to other angles.

 

[SIAD]

I don't think Vegeta > Kid Gohan is all that bad, the massive amount of progress suggested by Vegeta seems to imply it. Vegeta surpassing Kid Gohan seems about right, by how much would be another story.

And then the difference between Vegeta and Goku is the rage boost for Kid Gohan. I kind of like it.

I only go with a little surpassing though. Like 90/100 stuff. 200 to 250 is too much as we are already in a shaky territory. I like either him matching or slightly surpassing Kid Gohan in all things except rage. I think that's about right. But I'm open to other angles.

I have:

Teen Gohan SSJ2= 92

Kid Gohan SSJ2 = 100
(Rage) = 144

Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre) = 125

Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ2 = 156.25

 

[Goku9001]

Vegeta > Kid Gohan isn't bad assuming you have Kid Gohan's top power surpassing Vegeta by a large margin. The only caveat is Vegeta insisting that him and Goku surpassed Gohan because he hadn't been training.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have:

Teen Gohan SSJ2= 92

Kid Gohan SSJ2 = 100
(Rage) = 144

Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre) = 125

Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ2 = 156.25

Do you have SSJ2 = 2x SSJ1?

 

[SIAD]

Do you have SSJ2 = 2x SSJ1?

4x

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Where do you ubicate the Future Androids?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where do you ubicate the Future Androids?

70-75% of their Present selves. They seem close to Vegeta, but far above Trunks and Gingertown Cell.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don't think Piccolo has to improve that much. 800 to 6,000 seems a bit too much all things considered. Sure, Cell Saga demands he get stronger, but everything else we've seen makes him still feel Androids level. He doesn't feel like he's all that different.

A 1.5x boost might be the most accurate here. Maybe 2x at most. I see no evidence to suggest any more.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Who trains a whole year in the Rosat to get 1.5x stronger? 2x is the lowest I’d go.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Who trains a whole year in the Rosat to get 1.5x stronger? 2x is the lowest I’d go.

People who are maxed out. If Goku trained another year in the Rosat he probably wouldn't even get 1.1x stronger.

It has everything to do with potential and nothing to do with time. We've seen Goku increased his power probably 100 fold with a zenkai, yet his power up over 5 years from the 23rd Budokai to meeting Raditz is probably not even 2x.

Plot determines power, not logic. The plot in the follow up sagas determine Piccolo is piss weak. No reason to not take the hint.

Remember, a 1.33x boost is suggested to be gargantaun by Vegeta in the Namek Saga. 1.5x boost would allow Piccolo, who could not defeat Android 17 before, to easily beat both Androids COMBINED. That's a huge increase.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Round 2.

Cell Saga

Piccolo: 800

Imperfect Cell/Android 16: 2,500

Semi Cell: 5,000
~ FP: 7,500

SSJ Vegeta: 5,000
~ ASSJ: 12,500

SSJ Trunks: 4,800
~ ASSJ: 12,000
~ USSJ: 48,000

Perfect Cell: 37,500
~ Buffed up: 50,000

SSJ Goku (50%): 75,000
~ 100%: 150,000

SSJ Gohan: 200,000

Boo Saga

Gohan: 3,750
~ SSJ: 187,500

Vegeta: 5,000
~ SSJ: 250,000

Goku: 7,500
~ SSJ: 375,000

Yakon: 7,000
Pui Pui: 3,500
Shin: 3,000
Piccolo: 2,000

Much better indeed. SSJ Vegeta > CG SSJ Gohan feels sort of wrong, but I don't think it's contradicted.

I think this is my definitive list so far. I have Piccolo doubling his power to 1600 and then getting 1.25x stronger in the 7 years, but he could be the same as in the Cell Games.

Piccolo: 1,600
Shin: 2,400
Pui Pui: 3,600

Just not sure of the gaps between Saiyans, as I said on the Majin Vegeta vs Boo thread.