Cell vs Piccolo (Round 2)

[ahill1]

This isn't a case of "assume full power unless stated"... Piccolo flat out told us his chi blast wouldn't be as strong because he already used a lot of power in the prior attack. It means that when someone isn't at full power, their attack won't be as powerful as it normally would. It's a situation that's linked to all the other ones where a character is produccing a chi blast and yet not at full power, and therefore not comparable to some random character holding back and from that assuming a different one altogether is doing the same as well.

 

[p123]

Exactly. Assume full power, unless otherwise directed. Here we are directed otherwise. I just don't know if the manga is supposed to represent that. Nearly every fight contains fatigued fighters going all out.

What about Gohan vs Cell? Gohan states he is at less than half power, yet still manages to win a kinblast duel with someone who is 2.5x stronger than him and most likely same amplification. How do you explain that?

 

[ahill1]

But like I said, this isn't the same case we generally apply the "assume FP unless stated otherwise" rule. Here we have Piccolo stating that he won't laid out a blast as powerful because he already spent plenty of energy on the last one, so it's easy to assume the same rule would apply for other battles as well... no reason not to. We have seen it in the 21st Budokai as well... Jackie Chun had been already so tired he couldn't producce a powerful KMHMH against Goku, since he had already spent the majority of his chi bulking up and destroying the Moon.

The "assume FP unless stated otherwise" is generally applied to when there's no indication the character had been holding back... which is understandable... you can't say character x is holding back because character y was also holding back, that's nonsense. But now saying character x's blast isn't as powerful as it could be since he was tired and establishing a connection to a situation his blast wasn't as powerful because was not at FP there and was also tired is something fair and far from nonsense. The logic isn't the same.


As for Gohan's KMHMH against Cell, if anything that helps my POV, doesn't it? He wasn't flashing a KMHMH as powerful as he could because he had been weakened by Cell... if we were to follow the "a chi blast is at FP no matter what" rule, shouldn't Gohan's KMHMH be already at full power since the beginning?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Piccolo obviously meant that Cell was only doing a ~8k level KHH, just like Goku could in the Saiyan Saga. You gais have much to learn in the way of reading in-between the lines.

 

[p123]

Gohan's ki was holding back not to destroy Earth as stated by Goku.

Gohan's loss of power is never contradicted.

How oh how did he manage to beat Cell ahill?

 

[ahill1]

Gohan's ki was holding back not to destroy Earth as stated by Goku. 

True, well remembered.

But Gohan still had practically given up when Cell was about to shot his full power KMHMH. Even if he weren't on the right state of mind there, it sure as hell doesn't sound like he could producce a KMHMH to match Cell's one on his condition. He was about to give up until Goku boosted his confidence because he probably knew Gohan's absence of power was more of a mental thing.

But still, for Gohan to believe he had no hope in matching Cell's KMHMH might mean his current power output would prevent him from flaring a KMHMH of such magnitude, no?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Cell was pushed back by Piccolo's blast. Depending on how you view that blast, the gap
does not have to be greater than Vegeta/Recoome or it has to be as great as Freeza/Nail.

 

[p123]

Reecome took damage, Cell took none.

 

[Victorious]

Kamiccolo's Gekiritsu Koran should be fully charged and full power. Why not? Perfect Cell.was.punched twice and kicked in the face before he shot down on SSJ2 Gohan. What about Vegeta after kkx3 Goku beat the shit out of him? Are those blasts not full power? Not to mention the Final Flash Vegeta shot at warm up PC after Cell had kicked him through a canyon and he fell into the Ocean..and we know its destructive power of course.

 

[p123]

Yep, I made some of those very same points. It kills the whole suspense of the story. You have always pushed for this gap to be realized more than anyone I know Vic. This gap can be quite monstrous. One of the bigger ones in the series and everyone keeps it at a 1.5x gap. It's insane.

Did you like how I compared it to that fight from the hand to hand perspective? Gohan vs Cell and Cell vs Piccolo? In hand to hand, Cell is more impressive vs Piccolo than Gohan is vs Cell. Crazy. Never picked up on that before.

 

[Victorious]

. Even ignoring the tank It should be bigger than 60-66% gap IMO. Its pretty much stated by Gero that #16 would be totally unstoppable if he is released. Therefore #16 >>> Android arc Z Senshi + #17 & #18 + Gero. Could he really do that if his gap was 'only' 66% on #17?

 

[p123]

That's another good point. No one ever thinks about the power statements around #16 from Gero. Wow, good pick up. What was the exact wording, something like, "He'll kill you all!". Or something like that right? Who better to know that Gero himself?

 

[Victorious]

I think he said something like "you're going to get all of us killed"

 

[ahill1]

He stated it'd be the end of the whole world or something like this iirc.

Withheld had an interesting way to track a fair gap between Cell and Piccolo/#17 there. Imperfect Cell stated that if he were to absorb Piccolo he'd almost reach his 1st level of completion. And yet, when he absorbed that many earthlings, he stated he has absorbed more people than he needed to... that might mean he absorbed more people than he needed to reach his 1st form complete evolution.

So:

Cell (+ earthlings) > Cell (1st complete evolution) > Cell (+ weighted Kamiccolo)

If we assume that if Cell were to absorb Kamiccolo the whole thing would be based on an addition of Kamiccolo's battle power, you can have an accurate grasp on how strong Cell has become. For example:


Cell (Ginger Town) : 400,000,000
Kamiccolo (weighted) : 480,000,000
Kamiccolo (unweighted)/17 : 530,000,000
Cell (+ Kamiccolo weighted) : 880,000,000
Cell (complete 1st evolution) : 960,000,000
Cell (+ earthlings, absorbed more ppl than needed) : 1,050,000,000

 

[p123]

Yea, that's pretty insane now that you bring it up. Gero is shitting himself at the thought of 16 losing it, meanwhile he is there, 2 Super Saiyans and 2 strong ass Androids and he's still concerned. Damn, how have I missed this?

So #16 is probably capable of taking out that whole crew. That's scary powerful. Wow!

What's the quote on Cell saying that absorbing Piccolo would bring his first form to completion? That's a big statement if true, I remember hearing about it before, but I can't remember seeing it confirmed. Can you find the statement?

 

[ahill1]

Yea, that's pretty insane now that you bring it up. Gero is shitting himself at the thought of 16 losing it, meanwhile he is there, 2 Super Saiyans and 2 strong ass Androids and he's still concerned. Damn, how have I missed this?

So #16 is probably capable of taking out that whole crew. That's scary powerful. Wow!

What's the quote on Cell saying that absorbing Piccolo would bring his first form to completion? That's a big statement if true, I remember hearing about it before, but I can't remember seeing it confirmed. Can you find the statement?

The VIZ's statement seems to be more straightforward. According to Herms, Cell has only stated he'd be nearly at completion, without specifying his 1st evolution or anything like this. I like VIZ's statement more since Cell being close to the perfect fighter who handed Super Vegeta's ass back to him upon absorbing weighted Kamiccolo doesn't make sense for obvious reasons. So I go with the original translations just leaving the matter somewhat vague and then VIZ clarifying to us what Cell really meant by "nearly completion".

 

[p123]

I agree with you, but the trolls will say gaps don't matter and Piccolo + Cell = Perfect Cell. Haha.

I agree with your assessment and this is a good bit to hold onto.

1) Imperfect Cell (vs 16)states perhaps he absorbed too much 4,000,000,000
2) Imperfect Cell + Piccolo (Almost FP Imperfect) 3,400,0000,000
3) Piccolo 1,800,000,000
4) Cell 1,600,000,000

What do you think? That's how my numbers line up so far. I think it's within range.

This is great evidence either way.

We now know that Cell believes...

Cell + Piccolo = Near 1st Form Max Power.

Impressive. That definitely makes the 16/Cell nerfers blown out by character statements in my book. No more 1.5x boosts for them.

 

[ahill1]

And then Cell stated he absorbed more people than needed. Whilst by "more people than needed" he could simply mean he absorbed more ppl than needed to easily beat Piccolo and the androids into submission, I like to establish a connection between that and his earlier statement about Piccolo taking him to nearly his 1st evolution completed level.

 

[p123]

Look above you, already on it my man.

 

[ahill1]

I agree with you, but the trolls will say gaps don't matter and Piccolo + Cell = Perfect Cell. Haha.

I agree with your assessment and this is a good bit to hold onto.

1) Imperfect Cell (vs 16)states perhaps he absorbed too much 4,000,000,000
2) Imperfect Cell + Piccolo (Almost FP Imperfect) 3,400,0000,000
3) Piccolo 1,800,000,000
4) Cell 1,600,000,000

What do you think? That's how my numbers line up so far. I think it's within range.

This is great evidence either way.

We now know that Cell believes...

Cell + Piccolo = Near 1st Form Max Power.

Impressive. That definitely makes the 16/Cell nerfers blown out by character statements in my book. No more 1.5x boosts for them.

Yeah, it looks fair, but some people will argue Cell's absorbing Piccolo wouldn't work via addition since Cell gained that much power upon absorbing thousands of earthlings according to him. If a normal earthling possess a battle power of 5, then his absorptions couldn't work via addition, otherwise he wouldn't be that powerful upon absorbing thousand of earthlings, you see? I think that's the bump in the road for such theory.